5/1 MI === [00:00:00] Josh: Check, check, check. You gotta check. I got a talent. Unless it's mechanical, I don't do car work. Shane: Some people say, Josh, that we needed a hobby. I would argue our hobby is podcasting. Josh: I have many hobbies. I have. Plants, , plants, aquariums, painting more plants. I had chickens for a little while. Painting, Shane: You sound painting, Josh: painting,[00:01:00] Shane: painting, Josh: painting. Shane: painting. Sometimes I have to remember that I'm not a back woods country boy, that, I need to sound proper, Josh: wood, Shane: especially because I have a podcast and sometimes people like to write in or leave reviews and they like to talk about how I speak. Josh: Hey, this is the way I talk and not everything is proper, but we're from Indiana. If everybody talked exactly the same it would be boring. Tw I like my little twang. Shane: mom and when we grew up, our grandma who raised us, she would say Wash cloth. Josh: washed, Shane: Wash the Josh: Go, go wrench, my hands go wrench your hands off in the sink after you get a drink out of the water hose Shane: gonna go start a fire. Keep the house warm. Josh: I used to watch how I would talk. Like right now I'm watching how I speak and I can speak properly Shane: to Josh: sound like [00:02:00] I am more educated, but Right. Shane: Or sound like you are working a sex hotline. Right. Hello? Josh: Welcome to Mystery Inc. After dark. Ooh, Shane: after dark. are you doing? Josh: Sunday, Sunday, Sunday. Shane: You have a check. We have a talent. What do you need? What do you want Josh: Oh, yeah. Shane: That reminds me of when, , we talk about my assistant a lot. My assistant has been my best friend for a very long time. Josh: Hi, Kim. Shane: Kim, Kimberly, who, who also, goes through and listens to our podcast before we release it to make sure we don't make a fool out of ourselves. Josh: They're good friends. If you ever see them together, you would think that they are mortal enemies by the way they talk to each other. Shane: Yeah. We like to help tear each other down, We know that it's in [00:03:00] love. But anyway, it reminds me of one time we like to not play pranks on each other, but we like to laugh a lot. And that's where a lot of people will see us. And like, we do not do this. Like, if we were to do a live show, Josh, Kim and I would not be acting a fool. Like we look professional when we go places. But a part of how Kim and I are such good friends is we, Kim's gonna die laughing because I don't know how we talk about her on every episode. Josh: on the, I told her she needs to join us sometime. Shane: Oh, I know. She'd be so boring though. Bless her heart. But anyway, Kim, Josh: is a delight. I'm so nice to Kim. It's funny. Shane: Well, she could poison us all. Josh: They're so mean to her. And I'm like, you are an angels and from heaven. Shane: I brought cupcakes today to these, to the office once. Don't you all have one? Josh: All your all, diabetes and diets and food allergies. I'm like, well, I'm guess I'm going to eat 'em. Shane: like, I don't have any of that though. Josh: Oh, well, I [00:04:00] you, you're very good at watching what you eat. He's very healthy and I like a 12 year old teenage boy like Mountain Dew and Pop Shane: and you're the thin one. But anyway, back to Kim. We like to laugh a lot and that's where our very sarcastic humor comes from whenever we are giving each other a hard time. So when Josh makes a comment about how, if you don't know our humor, the way that we interact with each other, you would think that we absolutely are mortal enemies. That's because we are so very sarcastic to one another that we just appear that we hate each other, but we do it because , it makes us laugh. So all of that to say, when Josh was doing that little noise earlier one time, I had to hold a Kim's phone and I changed it to where anytime she, I know anytime she plugged in her phone charger, it would turn the volume all the way up. I had this automation going, it turned the volume all the way up, and then it screamed. [00:05:00] Oh yeah. Put it in me. And she, I did not tell her that I did that, , because you don't tell people that you do these things Right. And Josh: wait for the Shane: surprise. Right, right. And boy was she surprised when she went to go charge her phone. , she texts me a little later and she goes, I don't know what you did to my phone, but when I see you again, you're gonna undo it. Josh: it. And I love, that's the relationship too, where she instantly, I know, texted you cuz she was like, this can't be anybody else. My loving daughter would not do this to me. And Shane: yeah. No, it's me. And then I also, whenever I can, I, I get ahold of her Facebook and then I like to change her Facebook status. So like, for example, one time I went on to her Facebook. Josh: he does this all Shane: do, well, Josh: own Shane: and Josh: leave your phone. Shane: I do it so often that all of her Facebook friends,[00:06:00] Josh: face, Shane: although they don't know me, they know my name now and they love when I do it. So like if ever I meet them. Josh: that did, Shane: Yeah. And so I had never met her, but she knew me through doing this. And So Josh: are you Kim Shane's brother? Yeah, yeah, Shane: Yeah. But then if by happen chance I meet these people in public, they're like, oh my gosh, I love when you do these things to Kim's Facebook. They crack me up. So like, for example, one time. I went onto the public pages, where you can like look for a recommendation. But I did it in, Josh: me out. Shane: I know I did it in the marketplace Josh: Oh my God. Shane: and I put that she was looking for a man, but like looking for a single man who had no commitments and a big credit score. Josh: yeah. Who isn't. Shane: I know. And then there was all these stipulations though, and it was just so funny. It was like in my mind if you could create a dating profile of like your perfect person that you were looking for, but you could be completely [00:07:00] honest. You know that you're looking for a man who is single but has a perfect credit score and isn't afraid to show you his credit history. And I feel. Now when people meet, they could be like, oh, I have great credit history, but I'm sure you remember this. Do you remember when we were younger? Not too young. I think we were probably in middle school when someone in our dad's family got married to this pretty girl. I believe he was a little older, but, and she was a little younger, you know the type Josh: Oh yeah. Shane: And they got married and shortly after they got married, the man started getting these calls and come to find out she had like a hundred thousand dollars worth of credit card debt. Oh yes. Yeah. So they got divorced real quick and. Josh: people, like, really people don't go over finances before? Shane: No, people don't do that. And it's so crazy to me. But you also have to think like in school [00:08:00] you weren't, at least in our school, we weren't taught like how to balance your checkbook, right? Or how to apply for a credit card and how important it is to have credit and sustain your credit score and how important your credit score is and how in those type of meanings. For those of you who are listening and cannot view the show, Josh is in heat today and every time there's a cute man who walks into the building, I just need a water bottle and just start spraying you. We get he, he came in here at first because I had a doctor's appointment this morning and there was, evidently a good looking man getting his haircut. Well, Josh: not necessarily good looking, just tall, but you ladies know that counteracts a Shane: You said he was tall and he had muscles. Josh: big arms. Shane: Big arms. Yeah. Josh: I'm not picky. Shane: he looked like he was either once Josh: even need a good credit score. He Shane: He looked like he was once either in prison or he could be a police officer or [00:09:00] maybe, or once in the Army. Yeah. It was hard to tell. Josh: not, that there's anything bad about that, but you know, army in prison. You both, you've seen some stuff and you've probably got lots of tattoos and muscles. Shane: Yeah. Josh: Hey boys call me. I'm on Instagram. No, Shane: Josh is in heat today. Josh: Spring is sprung Shane: I need a water bottle in here. Josh: What are the, I'm in Rut Shane: And people are probably out there wondering, like, are they recording in a hair cutting place? No, we, it's next door to us. So we have a small little studio that we record in and in our building there are other offices and businesses in here. And so one of them is a nice little haircut place and so there's guys that go in there to get their haircut and Josh about breaks his neck every time. There's a cute one Josh: It's not all the time. It's a very small town, but every once in a while it's a nice little, it's like a little cup of [00:10:00] coffee, a little pick me up. Shane: You were too much. Josh: What were you talking about, Shane: I don't know. Josh: Kim? Oh. One of the things that I always remember, one time you made her Facebook status, something like, I like to sit on the dryer just so I can feel something. He's like, that's the type of things that he puts on Shane: It was sometimes I like to go outside and let mosquitoes bite me just so I can feel something. Yes. Yeah. Josh: Which the first few times I blamed him, but it happened so much. I'm like, quit leaving your phone unattended. Shane: one time she changed her password on her phone, but she uses the same password on everything. She's gonna die that I'm saying Josh: I almost said it too. Shane: Yeah. She Josh: It's a creepy pass. If a man used this password, he would be arrested. Shane: I know. He would. Every time she says it out loud, I'm like, you need to change that password, Kim. But anyway, she uses the password on everything and one time she tried changing it, but then she forgot what it [00:11:00] was. And so then, yeah, it was just a whole hot mess express. So she doesn't change it anymore, but I do have an agreement with her that if I do change it, if I change her Facebook status, there's a certain line and I have to not go over the line. So I ride that line very finely. Josh: Well, she, you know, again, she lives in a small, small town, so it's a very rural religious friend base. Shane: Well, that's the thing, like, I love good jokes and I love to laugh and Josh: We push the line. Shane: yeah, I, I like to ride the line when it comes to certain jokes and a lot of people do not care , for that type of humor. Josh: that you see their face and you're like, Nope, that's line is pushed too far for this group. Shane: Yeah. You just have to really be careful. And I know just from experience for doing it for this many years now, How far I can push that line on her Facebook.[00:12:00] But if you're also, I should mention that if you're listening and I sound weird just because such a couple days ago I got my, all four of my wisdom teeth removed. So I feel like my voice isn't fully back to Josh: Yeah, it's a little bit, a little deeper. Shane: yeah, it's weaker to me. It takes more energy for me to be able to talk. And it's kind of painful, but Josh: been there. Shane: well, it took such a long time for them to do it because the bottom two of my wisdom teeth the roots were so long and they were sideways. Which is why they had to come out. Josh: come. They almost had to break his jaw to get them out. Shane: Yeah. It was not pretty, but because of the extent and how long it took to do it, I'm, still numb even after . This many days. Josh: I'm surprised he's talking and here at the office. Shane: well, I hate, I absolutely despise sitting at home and doing nothing. And the dentist was like, okay, until I see you again, which will be a week [00:13:00] on Friday. Josh: take it easy. Shane: Yeah. He's like, stay at home and do nothing. And I was like, okay, I'll do that. But then I got home from the procedure and, you remember how I was talking about the Vicodin or whatever? Yeah, yeah. Or Hydrocodine. Well, I know what that is now because that's what he had given me. So that's why. Yeah. Josh: Who? Shane: well, it just makes me really sleepy. I just slept the whole time. So I only took it for a day before I was like, no, I'm not doing that anymore. I'm gonna switch to Tylenol and Ibuprofen, Josh: I don't wanna make sure you eat plenty of fiber. Hmm. Shane: I just, , you have to just constantly eat because it just tear up your stomach. But anyway, , Yeah, so I had just swear to the dentist that I would sit around and not do anything, but I'm not the type of person. So as soon as I got home that day, there was an issue with one of our podcasts not releasing on time. I don't know what it is with Apple, but it didn't go out to Apple, it went to everywhere else, but it wasn't publishing to apple, Josh: You guys have [00:14:00] enough money, get it fixed, Shane: right. Well, and it should be automatic. It normally is, but it didn't publish automatically to it. And Kimberly text me to tell me that it hadn't been published the night before to it. So I had to send in a ticket and I was doing all these things why had just gotten home from this procedure. So I was not in the best, mood or the best state to be doing this work. So I crafted an email to Apple and was working on that. And then, Josh: you remember even doing Shane: Halfway through trying to fix it, I ended up having to go take a nap, but then I ended up coming back to work on it again. Josh: he also created an only fans page just out of the blue, Shane: Josh is lying. I Josh: whatever , you know, those videos, people after the dentist. Shane: my gosh. Right. Well then yesterday I was like, okay, I can't stay home anymore. I have to get out. It's been two days. So then I text you and I was like, well, and then like prior to this, you and I talked about me being out for a [00:15:00] week and then we weren't gonna record anymore for a week so that I could have time to Josh: right. I just imagine you'd be sore and Yeah. Asleep for several days. Shane: Right. And then we planned for that. But then yesterday I text you and I was like, okay, I've been writing more, and researching more for Mystery Inc. We should record today if you can. And you're like, could we do tomorrow? Josh: I'm like, I'm writing two other podcasts right now. Shane: And I was like, yeah, I guess. Which it's probably really good that we didn't do yesterday because my face was so swollen that it really hurt to talk. But my swelling has gone down a lot today, so that's Josh: gone down good. Shane: Although yesterday I freaking forgot to bring with me to the office, Tylenol and ibuprofen. And then I remember I put it next to my shoes today, so I wouldn't forget to bring it. My shoes, well, I didn't put it in my shoes. I put it next to my shoes. But then I had a podiatrist appointment this morning [00:16:00] and I ended up bringing different shoes. Josh: course, Shane: So I didn't bring that with me. So when we get done recording today, I'll probably have to go home so I can take that medicine because after a while when what I took this morning where I was off, there's just this ache and pain that just starts to take over and then it becomes this really bad migraine. And it's absolutely horrific. Josh: I bet. Shane: Yeah. But it's better to me to be able, just to be able to be out and doing stuff and like recording this than sit at home and doing nothing. I get so bored. But I did watch the Jared from Subway thing on Discovery Plus. Oh yeah, there are, so, there are three episodes and I've really liked it. It was really good. The only thing that was new that I did not know about really was, , of course , in the episode, the, our first episode that we did here, I had mentioned. That his business partner, had gotten [00:17:00] arrested first. Well, that guy's two stepchildren. His two stepdaughters were a part of the feature. So yeah, you hear from them and you hear what they went through. And they were two people who he had filmed and, yeah, they were underage and he was filming them, you know, showering and he had a secret camera in their rooms. And their lifestyle that him and their mom created around them was crazy. Like, although they were underage, I think that they were like 13, 14, maybe four. Maybe 14 or 15. Yeah. They were completely children underage. But that lifestyle that they created around them, When their mom started, going with him was completely inappropriate. The mom would allow them to drink, would actually suggest that they drink and party. And, there were Josh: [00:18:00] Don't be your kid's friend. Be their parent. Shane: And there were times one of them was talking about, this is gonna get just a little graphic, but there was one time when one of them was talking about her coming home and in her room there was a dildo next to her bed and the stepdad had messaged her and was like, just so you could have a little fun or something like that. And little did she know that anytime , she would do anything to herself in her room, that would be filmed. And that would be circulated by him to other people. And so the FBI had all of that, all that videos. And not Josh: they tried to say they didn't do nothing. Shane: Right, not only of them though, of their friends. So they talked about when the FBI did the raid and took all of that evidence, those two girls got called into the F B I and had to go through. Josh: more traumatizing. Shane: [00:19:00] Mm-hmm. They had to go through all that video and images and identify which of their Josh: that they were being filmed. Yeah. Shane: They had to identify which of their friends were in those pictures and videos like, can you imagine? Josh: just, the ultimate form of violation. Shane: Well, and then so of course their stepdad gets convicted and goes to prison, and then Jared gets convicted and goes to prison. Well, more recently, their mom. , the FBI goes back and then charges their mom with some of that to the, I think the FBI reopened the case and tried to find out how much the mom knew and was involved, and was able to find out that the mom had more to do with it than what they initially thought. And so they were able to charge the mom. And the mom is in prison now too. Josh: mom. So now not only have these two girls been violated and sexually abused, but now they're orphans. Pretty much. Shane: [00:20:00] Yeah. Yep. And one of them at least, is old enough that she has children of her own, if I remember right. That she talks about in the series. And she said that they're becoming of age, that she was, when she remembered in some of , the videos of her being filmed and Josh: I would be such a helicopter Shane: I know, I know. Josh: go check their room like with that, camera checking device like every other day. Like, okay, let's see. Mm-hmm. Shane: I think the only thing for me that was missing in the documentary was more details about what Subway knew. You could tell that they were trying to just skirt over not being sued. Josh: Mm. Shane: Uh, becau Josh: paid to keep some stuff out. Shane: , I don't think so. I think that because there's, it's almost comical because there's one statement where this person makes a very scripted [00:21:00] statement Josh: script Shane: how, well, a lot of people question on how much Subway knew and when they knew it. But I probably think that, they probably didn't know anything and I was just like, that was a statement. To not get sued by Josh: statement, Shane: Like that was a clearly blanket statement to not get sued by Subway. So that was a cop out statement, like in that, moment I started laughing and here I am, in my bed just after surgery from all this wisdom teeth, laughing, swollen, chipmunk face. Like just thinking, you just try to save yourself. I'm not getting sued. But I do think that, they should have touched more on that because there were some details of that scenario that was left out. They did not touch on. The reports of when Subway knew what, or people reporting things on Subway, that was completely, all of that was left out. It was just [00:22:00] the focus was on Jared and his business dealings with the other guy. So that was their focus. I think it was solely not to get sued. Josh: They're like allegedly Subway. Shane: Yeah. It was like the quickest 32nd statement of, , some people question, but I think probably like It was just so BS Josh: the end of those, pharmaceutical commercials, side effect. They include anal leakage, anal seage, anal bleeding. Shane: Yeah, it was Josh: blowout. Shane: was just kind of silly and I don't know, I was just like, really? Come on now. It was, Josh: always something. They're gonna make a second one now. The story of Subway. Shane: I know. Well, they really should. Josh: they'll probably put this one out, see how it's reacted, and then go in on them. Shane: Well, it might be Netflix that they like to do things that will push the line of getting sued. Josh: I [00:23:00] like Subway, but I'm not spending $20 on a cold Shane: Did I tell you about going there with mom? Josh: Yeah, it was like 40 bucks for the two of Shane: For two footlongs. Yeah. Now mind you like, it was like a foot long, a little thing of chips, which let me tell you, that's mostly air. Josh: and those chips are like less than a dollar. I mean Shane: they are ridiculously tiny. Josh: a cup of potato Shane: it's barely half a cup. Josh: and a beverage. Shane: Yeah. And we just got a normal size beverage and our sandwich was just a normal sandwich. There was no extra meat or anything like that. Josh: cold cock combo. Shane: Yeah. And they were, Josh was making a reference to when our grandma. Josh: I'm a jean. Oh, Shane: I'm a genius on our dad's side of the family accidentally said, cold cock combo Josh: first trip to Subway, she , has anxiety like I do. And she got real nervous and she was like, I'll, I'll take a, a cold cock combo. Made her even [00:24:00] more nervous like me yesterday at the store when I accidentally dropped my basket right in the middle and made a loud bang every, just at the Dollar store. But I walked in and grabbed a basket and another one was stuck at the bottom. And before I could grab it, it like fell off and just like made the, the store was like bone quiet. I was just sorry. All these little old ladies gave me dirty Shane: Did it sound like a shotgun? Yes. Josh: I was like, oh my God, I hate, this is my worst night. I hate when people look at me in this store. Shane: Right. And the last thing that we want to ever do is bring attention to ourselves. You just want to get in and get out, and you're like, boom. , Josh: I almost walked out. Shane: I'm surprised you didn't, Josh: Oh, don't need that. Bye. Shane: no thanks. Josh: Just take all running Shane: is infested with rats. I'm leaving. Josh: Call me the roadrunner. I will. If it's uncomfortable or I'm nervous. Meet me. Shane: It's like the time you [00:25:00] left me with that pizza. Do you remember that? Josh: vaguely. Shane: It was a while back, it was when you guys were living in Richmond Josh: in the Americana. Yeah. Shane: Yeah. And Josh and I went to go pick up this pizza that our mom was supposed to have ordered. And, she had sent us with money to go pick it up. Right. And. Evidently she didn't give us enough money to pick it up. And Josh went in to go grab the pizza and he's like, Hey, I'm here to pick up the pizza. The name is Waters. And they're like, okay, the total is, we'll say it's $40. And they're like, Josh is like, oh, she only gave me 38. And then he's like, Josh: oh, nevermind. Shane: thanks. He just turned around and walked out and he comes back to the car, sits down just, Josh: they didn't give us enough. Oh, well, Shane: yeah. And he's just like, okay. And I was like, where's the pizza? And Josh was just like, mom didn't gimme enough money. So I told him we didn't want it. And I was like, I have two extra dollars. Hold on, let me find it. So we [00:26:00] went back in Josh: in. Well, there's a reasoning too, that is one of the worst pizza places I've ever eaten at. They are like a knockoff of a popular chain. Shane and I were used to growing up here in the Midwest and it just ho horr like the worst pizza. I hated it. And they got like, always got a cheeseburger pizza or something that I, Shane: so the Josh: had a lot of meat. And so I was like, oh, well guess we can't have pizza jar not eat literally anything else. Shane: I guess we gotta have salads. Josh: And they'd get it, , like every other week or so. And I would like, oh, yay, LM Z. Shane: when Josh: when you say that people, well, what? They think you're mad. And I'm like, no. I literally just, I would rather have any kind of cereal, grape nut cereal without sugar more than this pizza. Shane: All right. Which I do like cereal. Josh: I do [00:27:00] too. Shane: Sometimes if I'm like, what do I want for dinner today? You know, cereal kind of sounds good. Josh: Uh, gimme some cinnamon check m mix. I can't Shane: oh, I really, I really like Cinnamon Toast Crunch. Oh my gosh. Josh: more towards cinnamon cereals every once in a while. I love me some Lucky charms. I do like that, but it makes me belch a lot afterwards. So I know I eat it very often. But, uh, cinnamon chm, I, you can tell we are raised bar grandma. I'm like, gimme some Cinnamon Chex Smokes grape nuts. Uh, Honeynut Cheerios. Gotta get that. Heart health. We're eating it at 12. Like, I'm gonna, I'm heart healthy. Yeah. Shane: I had a bunch of sugar on that, please. Josh: some vanilla creamer in my milk. Shane: right. That whole milk in that, Josh: Remember when he could drink milk? Uh, I don't remember the last time I had a glass of milk wasn't from a nut Shane: Nu right. Josh: or an oat. Shane: Oh my [00:28:00] gosh. I, I love Starbucks drinks, but anytime I go with friends, I'm always, That person driving normally. And that always gives me such bad anxiety because people's strengths are always so complicated. Josh: I can't do it Shane: And then the moment someone says upside down, I'm like, roll down my window all the way. Just tell 'em Josh: 'em if Shane: you're just giving up. Just tell Josh: 'em. If there's more than like me and one other person in the car, I pull in the driveway. I'm like, we're going in. Everybody's ordering on their own. Whatever you want, you get it yourself. I'm not about to, I just, I get bad drive-through anxiety. It comes from our father who was known to panic sometimes and just shut his truck off in the drive-through. So I get a little nervous when, when I go through a drive-through, I usually looked up the menu if I don't know it already. And when I get there I'm like, I want this. And that's all. Thank you very much. Like very straightforward to the point. No dilly dolly. Shane: Yeah, me too. I actually cannot stand, I get [00:29:00] such bad anxiety if I get to the board and there's other people with me and they don't know what they want Josh: the, oh my Shane: oh my God. I'm like, just pick something. Any mini mighty mo cuz I'm ordering now. They're like, just tell 'em, just tell him , we need a minute. I'm like, Nope. They said we gotta go. Josh: , this is McDonald's that's had the same menu for a hundred years. You know what you want. Shane: You want nuggets or do you want a sandwich? Do you want chicken? Josh: I hate when there's a kid in the car and the parents are like, what do you want? Do you want this? Well, do you want fries or apples? You want Sprite or chocolate? Man? I'm like, you wants this, this, and this, and that's it. What? Any toy? Just throw it in the bag. Come on. Shane: If Josh: Even now I'm like getting, I get like residual anxiety from like past experiences. Shane: All to say though, if you ever are with me and we go to Starbucks, you better know what you want Josh: we're going in, Shane: it better not have the word upside down. Josh: That's Shane: just shut [00:30:00] down. Josh: It has more than five ingredients. You're going in, Shane: Yeah. I can deal with an alternative milk cuz I'm used to that now. Right. Josh: At first, even that Shane: but like, there's so many Josh: an inconvenience. I don't wanna inconvenience Shane: Yeah. I'm used to it now. , I've been desensitized to the alternative milks, so Josh: so common now. Yeah. Shane: So I know all of those. But like, when you start saying upside down, uh, nope. I already know that you are, you're gonna be so complicated that you're just gonna have to talk to them because they're not gonna get it. Right. And they're gonna ask me if it's right and I'm gonna say yes automatically. And you're gonna get what you get. Josh: well, even on our trip, to Illinois, I noticed that you and I get almost the exact same thing in Starbucks. Usually a large iced white chocolate mocha, but the only difference he gets oat milk, I get almond milk. I found that funny. I was like, Aw, we didn't, like, not even planned or on purpose, but we Shane: to order. Right. Josh: It's quick Shane: And if I [00:31:00] forget what I want, it's always in the very top left-hand corner of the Josh: need a venti iced white chocolate milk, almond milk, and an extra shot of espresso. No whipp cream, right? I say it just like that too quick, especially Starbucks. I'm like, if it's in the morning, don't get in front of me at Starbucks and not have your order ready, cuz my window will be coming down and my pre-coffee Josh is coming out Good. You let her be good in coffee if you are getting like a frappuccino, some of us need this. I guess. So these are all things I've said to people. Shane: Right. All this to say, Josh, today we were going to be talking about before we got sidetracked about mysteries from our drive. So Josh and I drove from our home here in Wabash, Indiana out to two locations in Illinois. And of course we had a drive through small [00:32:00] towns and some medium sized towns. And so while we were driving through those towns, we thought it would be really cool to find some cool mysteries and histories to share from the places that we were visiting. Yes. So why don't I go first because we've lost track of whose turn is to go Josh: go? I was even thinking about the hotel. Like when we recorded, it was just the other day and I have hardly any memory of it. We were high on pancakes and five guys and Chinese. We had a smorgasborg at our last hotel we did. Woke up to a room smelling of bacon. It was heaven. Shane: it. That was heaven. But then there's also a fine line of Yeah, yeah. and I know for you out there who love bacon, that sounds absolutely horrible like that. There could be such a thing as too much bacon. But when you wake up to your room smelling strongly like[00:33:00] Josh: bake just Shane: you're like, what's going on? But evidently the kitchen where they made bacon at that morning was right below our Josh: meet, yeah. Shane: just like went right up the staircase right into our room. So I looked at Josh and I was like, Josh: to pay extra for that? Shane: I was like, if they don't have bacon, Josh: The buffet, Shane: in the buffet, , breakfast downstairs at our hotel, I'm gonna be really mad because they're just gonna like, whiff it into our room and they're not gonna have it. Josh: tea. Well Shane: almost expected them to like charge extra for Josh: out Right. Shane: they're like, the rest of the food is on the house. But if you want the bacon, it's gonna be an extra $5. Josh: it was, better than a telephone wake up call from a hotel. That was so true. Let me stretch my ears. These headphones make your ears hurt. I have huge ears so they get pinched sometimes. Shane: What was that [00:34:00] elephant that had huge ears? Josh: Why do you think I pretended I was Bugs Bunny so much as a kid. I had huge ears and two big old front teeth. Like, oh, I had to imitate somebody. I'm like, bugs Bunny. It is. I can do that. Shane: do that. Josh: Ate a lot of carrots. Shane: That's hilarious. Yeah, you did. That's funny. Josh: I also, one of the only ones that don't wear glasses, so they say carrots are good for your eyesight. I, I'd put money on it, knock on wood. Shane: So while Josh and I were driving through Indiana and in Illinois in the mystery machine, Tesla, Josh: always a good time, right? Shane: One of the very first towns we came across is going to be a town that most of you have heard of. It was called Delphi, Indiana. Yeah. So of course if you've heard of Delphi or if that name sounds familiar to you, it's gonna be because of the double homicide of the two best friends, Abigail [00:35:00] Williams and Liberty Germany. Abigail was 13 and Liberty was 14. And on February 13th, 2017, they had disappeared. They were last seen going onto the Monn Hybrid Bridge Trail in Delphi. The Monn hybrid trail is part of the Delphi historic trails. When you are driving through Delphi, you see the trail, it extends pretty much throughout the entire city. I've been on the trail before and I actually went on it about two weeks after this happened. , with a couple friends. Josh: 30 minutes from where we live. 45, 30 minutes? Shane: Yeah, I would say about 45 minutes from here. Josh: I remember seeing it on the map and trying to remember how long it far away from us it was, Shane: us. Yeah. At around 1 35 Eastern time, Abby and Libby were dropped off by a family member [00:36:00] just east of the bridge to get onto the trail. The two had started walking on the trail toward the bridge, making it eventually to the bridge. At 2:07 PM Libby posted a photo of Abby walking on the bridge. This was the last time anyone ever heard from the two. And Josh. I will say that when I have gone to that trail before I noticed that. Josh: immediately so Shane: when the news reports were coming out right after these two girls disappeared, of course, photos of that bridge had gone viral at that point. But I knew from that moment that whoever had gone there they had to have been on that bridge before because it's not actually a bridge, it's a trestle. Right. It Josh: treacherous looking. Yeah. Shane: It once held a train track, and that's true for most of the trails that are in Delphi. The [00:37:00] trails were once train tracks that were turned into the trail and where the trestle is, the bridge that everyone knows as the image surrounding the Delphi case as some people call it, that where that trestle is, that is actually not part of the walkway they've never finished the trail beyond the bridge. So, the trail actually stops prior to you getting to the bridge. There's warning signs telling you not to go onto the bridge. So why they've never torn down the bridge? I have no idea. Josh: There's no handrail. There's no ambulance of safety on this Shane: In fact, I've seen the bridge of course, in person before and you have to have a wide gate in order to be able to walk between the wood pieces, in order to walk across the trestle. And a lot of that wood is not steady. Some of it's rotten, some of it has fallen away. And yeah, there's no side hand, there's nothing to hold [00:38:00] onto. And it's the second highest trestle in Indiana. It is very, very high up. Josh: Shane and I were not reckless children. We were like those ones, I was like, I ain't doing that. That's liable to get hurt doing that. Shane: Right. And I think in all honesty, at some point in time, and this is completely my opinion, but I think that's probably why when Abby and Libby were on the far end, so they had walked onto the trestle and walked to the far end of it, I think that they saw the man get on it and start walking towards them. That's probably why they started feeling uncomfortable, because it wasn't very common probably for someone to walk as far towards them as this person was. I do know that local people would get on it, like people their age would get on it to take pictures and stuff. Josh: stuff. Well, just as a female, you're raised from, a young girl to be taught. If a stranger, especially a strange man starts [00:39:00] approaching you, take caution. That's just, , . A common thing for all women. Sad reality. Shane: right, at 5:30 PM the two were reported missing. When they failed to meet Libby's father at 3:15 PM the next day, both of their remains were found a half mile east of the bridge on the North Bank of the Deer Creek. So, as I mentioned, the trestle was really high up, so the person who was responsible likely took them down below, , down to the water, which runs below the trestle, and they were found half a mile east of where that trestle was. Detectives had realized that Libby had recorded audio through the video recording feature on her cell phone, which was most likely in her pocket throughout the majority of the time. So I think that probably they noticed that this suspicious person was coming towards them pretty quickly and she kind of took [00:40:00] it out. And that's where we see the images that were released and the clips of the video of him walking toward them, because she like held up her phone toward him and then she slips it into her pocket. But the phone was still recording. It was still video recording the entire time. Josh: that ultimately helped lead to the arrest of a suspect, didn't it? Shane: Yeah, eventually just here recently. But that's how they caught, how he looks and they caught his voice saying, down the hill. Detectives released those images and the suspect's voice saying down the hill from Libby's phone to the public and everyone will probably remember when that happened. that was very, very big news here recently, late last year, on October 26th, 2022, was taken into custody and charged with two counts of murder on October 31st. And Josh, he was actually living in Peru. Josh: actually, oh God. Shane: Peru, Josh: That's about [00:41:00] 12 miles from Shane: yeah, it's just right next door. It's just right next door to us. But Peru is between us and Delphi. Yeah. And according to the reports he had worked at a pharmacy, basically in Delphi at the time and had, , dealt with them. And everyone I'm sure already knows all of that information, Josh: right? Shane: So he was from the Peru, , Mexico area. Mexico's just a little further north of Peru. So Peru is very, very close to us. So just to imagine that someone like him who is capable of doing what he did, just lives that close is unimaginable. Josh: imagine I go there for a certain taco restaurant every mm-hmm. Week or so, Shane: Right. Josh: right? Shane: So that's the story of the mystery that happened in Delphi when we drove through it, Josh: through, I remember when it happened, and that's when I [00:42:00] actually first started dipping my toe into podcasting. , Shane: a lot of people always ask why I never covered it on foul play. And the honest reason was because of a couple reasons. One, I do not like to cover series on foul play of crimes like that, that are so close to home. I am not a member of law enforcement. I cannot make arrests. I cannot, Crazily defend myself if a crazy fanatic person comes after me. And the last thing I wanted to do was endanger myself for someone that I care about by trying to do a series , and gather more attention. Because I know that, especially with foul play, where I am the voice behind this narration series, that although the story's not about me, I am the creator of it. And [00:43:00] I am very well aware that people will attach my name to it, right? And I don't want to become the target of. The person who would be living locally. And that's, that was my opinion, my thought of knowing the trestle and how dangerous it was. I would never imagine that someone who was not very familiar with that trestle would ever cross the trestle. that is a 0% chance in my mind that someone would've done that. You could have Josh: and be like, I'm gonna break a leg. I ain't gonna Shane: This is completely my opinion, but you could have been the biggest pedophile, but you looked at that trestle, it was so dangerous that you wouldn't have even thought about going across it. And so I, I mean, my opinion was that whoever done it had to live close or be a local person where they could still be in the area. And I did not want to, Someone that I care about in danger, did I think that the person was going to come after me? Probably not. But what? What would the person do? Go? [00:44:00] Yeah, they would probably go after someone you care about. Josh: about it. I wasn't surprised at all. You didn't cover it. You like to use your, voice to give a voice to, cold cases. And these people who have been murdered in the past, who no longer have a voice or anyone trying to seek justice for them, that seems to be more of your calling. And even though their case was just down the road and extremely tragic, there was a plethora of voices telling their story and trying to seek justice. So, no, I, I wasn't at all surprised you didn't. Shane: Good. So another town that we drove through, Josh was Danville, Illinois. Yeah. Do you remember driving through that? So Danville, I thought this was really interesting. It is actually one of the most dangerous cities in the Josh: most What? Shane: I know, didn't know that when we drove through it, probably Josh: I would've waited to pee. No. Shane: And it is the second most dangerous cities in the [00:45:00] Midwest. Jesus. So Danville is east of Champaign, near the Indiana, Illinois border. It's the sixth most dangerous metro area in the country, and the most dangerous metro area in the state of Illinois. Josh: The hell's going on. Shane: I know, keep in mind that Chicago is in Illinois. Josh: I love Chicago. Uh, Shane: Me too. So there were 785 violent crimes reported in 2020, Josh: crime thousand Shane: For every 100,000 people. They have a murder rate of 17.4 people per 100,000. Josh: thousand. Jesus. That's Shane: more than double the national average of 6.5 people. Memphis, Tennessee is the only city that beats it, and they have the most dangerous metro city in the Josh: Tennessee Memphis don't be woken in Memphis. Shane: Oh my gosh. Josh: Sorry. [00:46:00] I'm sorry you say Memphis. I instantly hear Cher in my head. I can't help him. Shane: Oh gosh, Josh: He loves me. Everybody Shane: sometimes. Josh: does. He love you. And there's Shane: No, he doesn't. So Josh, another thing that I just found out about, which I was shocked to learn, this is something that I feel like everyone needs to know about, and I will probably do a hometown history episode on it because I was so involved in being able to figure out all the details of it. So the Potawatomi Trail of Death traveled through Danville. Have you ever heard of this? Yes. So they traveled through Danville. They camped there before passing through. And four Potawatomi are buried in Danville from them traveling on the trail. Josh: So you're Shane: wondering what that was, this was the forced removal of [00:47:00] about 859 Native Americans, specifically members of the Potawatomi Nation from Indiana to reservation lands and what's now eastern Kansas, basically. Josh: Like the Trail of Tears? Pretty much. Yeah. Shane: Just a different native people. Yes. This was the largest Native American removal in Indiana history. Militia forced the Potawatomi to travel from Twin Lakes Indiana on November 4th, 1838 and ended near present day OS Wame, Kansas. Josh: Geez. Shane: This was about 660 miles, which took 61 days with the Native Americans on foot. Josh: America, two months of walking. Shane: Mm-hmm. More than 40 Potawatomi people died. Most of them were children. Yeah. And while I was looking into the events that played up to them being forced to leave their homeland, I found out that they had signed [00:48:00] a bunch of treaties with Indiana. And what the historians say is that these treaties, they nicknamed them the whiskey treaties because what they would do is give those Josh: 'em drunk and make Shane: Yeah, that's exactly what they were doing. And so they, they would sign a bunch of treaties not knowing what they were signing or, Josh: even be able to read the language that they were written in. Shane: And suddenly when the, when Indiana was saying, you've signed away your rights to this land. You need to move the chiefs. And everyone , from the nation were like, no, we didn't, we would never do that. And so they started saying that their signatures were actually forged on those documents. Josh: Well, they didn't even have signatures. They. Shane: most of the time, Josh: they're not writing in scripture on the Shane: Well, the Potawatomi people wrote to the president of the United States at the time, and they also wrote to the Secretary of [00:49:00] War asking for help because they knew that Indiana would force them out if they didn't have help. But those calls for help did not come. And eventually Indiana sent, the militia out to remove them. And so that's where this trail of death happened. Josh: that'll play along with my tale. Shane: Well, before you get started on that, have a couple more. So Lafayette, Indiana, we traveled to right before we got into Danville. So Lafayette is of course home to Yeah, it is. Home to Purdue University in West Lafayette. So Josh, I bet you did not know this, maybe you did and you'll surprise me, but did you know that Amelia Earhart has a connection to Purdue University? Josh: know? No. Shane: Yeah, and I did not know that until I spent a year at Purdue, , for some classes. And they have a dining hall, of course I would know [00:50:00] because of a dining hall. That sounds so embarrassing. But they have like a dormitory for women, but they also have a dining hall named after her. And then there's a statue outside of the dining hall, of Amelia. And so I realized at that moment like, oh, that's kind of cool. But I didn't realize that they had a bigger connection to her even while I was there. So her connection to Purdue began in 1935 when she joined the faculty as a career consultant and technical advisor in the Department of aeronautics. Josh: of Hmm. Shane: A position that she held until her disappearance in 1937. Josh: I love watching any documentary Shane: I know. Well actually, Josh, my unmasked episode for today is gonna be on the Josh: Is it the island? Shane: We're gonna talk about all of it. I'm gonna walk through the entire mystery of Amelia Earhart. It's gonna be a special unasked, full episode Josh: I have my own theories. Yeah, well Shane: we'll, we'll talk about them. [00:51:00] So during her time at Purdue Earhart advised and mentored students, particularly women on careers in aviation, and engineering. She encouraged female students to pursue their passions and breakthrough barriers in traditionally male dominated fields. Josh: what wasn't back then, Shane: Right. Erhart also worked closely with the Department of Aeronautics. Providing guidance on various technical aspects of aviation and sharing her experiences as an accomplished aviator. Now, Josh, here's something that most people would never have known. This was so interesting for me to find out because I know a lot about Amelia's disappearance, but I did not know about this. Josh: Hmm. Shane: So Purdue University played a crucial role in supporting Earhart's final flight around the world. The Purdue Research Foundation funded the purchase of her Lockheed Electra 10 E Josh: Oh, wow. Shane: Which was specially modified for the ambitious [00:52:00] trip, so it had, Josh: toilet, Shane: well, it had more gas tanks, Josh: right in a toilet. Shane: This, of course, would be the plane that she disappeared in during her 1937 flight. And as I mentioned, I'm going to go throughout her entire disappearance on our unasked episode. Josh: so Purdue bought that plane for her? Shane: Yeah. Well, so she specifically had it made for her. So she designed, I mean the whole thing was made for her, but Purdue financed it, paid for the whole thing for her. Yeah. I never knew that. And I felt that was just so cool. And yeah, I think that Purdue needs to do a better job at like telling people that she had an involvement Josh: Right. Shane: Like, cuz that, that's really, really cool. Josh: Maybe they underestimate the public interest in her still. Cuz I mean, she's, she's up there with one of my top pa, her and Joan of Arc are like two of my top, historical [00:53:00] fascination. Shane: Yeah. I've always been fascinated with her. I remember as a child watching Unsolved Mysteries as a kindergartner, there's an episode of Amelia Earhart and Unsolved Mysteries. Yeah, yeah. That's how I first learned about her too. Ever since then I've always wondered what happened to her and where is Amelia? We will talk about that on the Unmasked episode today. Josh: She's with the Malaysian flight. Shane: I have to also mention the second mystery that I found while through an old newspaper article, Josh from Lafayette. I thought it was pretty interesting, but also Laura Racy. Josh: Uh oh, Shane: I know. Josh: my favorite. Shane: So on June 15th, 1912, the Lafayette Journal headlined a story that said rocks, point out buried treasure. Josh: Oh, Shane: know how much you like rocks in buried treasure. In mystery. Well, right, Josh: he says Shane: right. Josh: All you crystal enthusiasts out there. He means crystals and.[00:54:00] Shane: sentence me to death with throwing rocks at me. Josh: Some hex, some ladies. Shane: He me. So the article from, again, 1912 it detailed that a rock was found on the farm belonging to Charles Stair on Battleground Route 16. It was found in the year 1910. So it was two years prior to them publishing this article. Some big trees had been cleared and they discovered a big rock that had these words chiseled into it. Josh: oh Shane: The word said, this is a quote, go 600 steps north. Find Rock x. Indians buried 200 canoe. That's K N U of Gold Want white man to get it. Joe Sanders. Period. And that's what the Rock said. So that 1912 article said that [00:55:00] when the folks who found the Rock, they find it and they're like, we're gonna do what the Rock says. So they go the 600 steps north, they find a Second Rock. And I know you're probably just dying to hear what the Second Rock said. Josh: Gotcha. No, Shane: that would've been great. Like a hundred, a hundred years worth of just waiting for someone to get that. I just can't wait that long though, right. But anyway, so the Second Rock was found and this rock was found on the farm of Frank Bub and said, The exact same thing that the first one said. However, it instructed the person to go 600 steps west instead of north. So basically, the first rock would take you north and it would find the rock, and then that rock would take you west. Okay? Josh: Okay. Shane: Now, when you follow the instructions on the rock, you land on the farm of John P. Johns,[00:56:00] Josh: of who in Shane: 1912 would not allow anyone on his farm to check for the gold. Now, the article mentioned that canoe, K N U, they thought it meant canoes of buried gold, okay? Like that the native people had buried canoes of gold. Josh: neighbors Shane: had believed that Mr. Jones may have found some of those canoes of buried gold at some point, and maybe that's why he didn't want people searching on his land. So the name Joe Sanders was a mystery. In the article, it mentioned that people believed he might have been an American soldier in the battle of tippy canoe who escaped after having been captured by Native Americans after learning about the hiding place of their gold. Another theory is that he was a hunter and learned where the Native Americans buried their treasure. There wasn't a way of telling how long the rocks had been buried. And many people believe that it may just be nothing more than someone's practical joke,[00:57:00] Josh: than I'd go with practical joke, just from what I can recall of Native Americans, gold wasn't a big resource than a, now down in Mexico, where it was more easily accessible. Yes. But I can't see them wanting to hoard it. They traded in like goods and services and corn was gold to them, or maize was gold to them. Shane: I would agree to that at some point, but when settlers or invaders as native people would like to call them, when those settlers started, having treaties with native people, I think that is probably when those native people would've seen gold having a more monetary value. Right. So I could then see them valuing it more if they didn't already. Josh: Some invaders and got their gold and they had no purpose for it. Knew it was dangerous Shane: Yeah. I'm not familiar with the Native Americans that were from that [00:58:00] area during that time, or how old that rock was or anything like that. So Josh: my story will go into that Shane: Oh good. Josh: kind of, the tribes anyway, Shane: So that was, fun little rock mystery that I found. I did look up to see if I could find anything on Joe Sanders, because , the Rock has a name Joe Sander on it, and I did find Juan Joe Sand Josh: Joe Shane: from Lafayette. Josh: Oh, Shane: Now this Joe Sanders is a modern Joe Sanders, who was arrested in Lafayette in 2016 Josh: Oh Jesus. Shane: almost $400,000 worth of promethazine syrup, which is opioids. Josh: Oh, so Likein. He he making meth. Shane: yeah, it's pretty much opioid syrup. Josh: His life is a myth. Shane: Oh, his [00:59:00] life is a meth. Yeah, so about $400,000 worth of that syrup. Can you imagine? Josh: He probably had the clearest nasal passages and Shane: He probably found the canoe of gold and Josh: Bob cough syrup bought. Shane: promethazine syrup. Josh: Good heavens Shane: Good. I know, but that is my mysteries and histories for this episode, Josh. Josh: Well I have, something that kind of plays in with a little bit of your mysteries with the Native Americans at least. Well, I was tasked with finding something mysterious along our route. , I learned that champaign Illinois was founded because they built a train track too far away from the neighboring town, urban. I had a little difficulty with that. I'm like, they literally built this, all of this and nobody thought once. Hmm. That's a little too far. Shane: Well I did see that the [01:00:00] reason they built the train track a little further away was because they had, cuz I was curious too, cuz we had stayed in a hotel in Champaign and the reason they did it was because the land was flatter over there. Okay. So they could, they didn't have to like flatten land, but if it's inconvenient for you flatten the dang land to make it closer to the city, I mean, what are you doing? Josh: to flatten a little land than build a whole new city. I mean the, Shane: Well, apparently the railroad was a slide. Well, we're just gonna build it over Josh: We got money to blow and Irish and Chinese immigrants to force into labor. Shane: Right. Josh: Well, I searched old newspapers and I honestly googled the heck out of most of the towns that we passed. But alas, I just couldn't find anything that really struck my fancy and kept in our mysterious theme, so I ventured just slightly south from where [01:01:00] we were and found something ancient and mysterious. That brings me to my topic for this episode, the Khoya Mounds, or the City of the Sun in Collinsville, Illinois. Now, I will admit that Native American burial mounds have been a fascination of mine since I was a little girl. My first experience with them was when Shane and I were around 10, 11, and we were at our family reunion at Mound State Park in Anderson, Indiana. Now our family is incredibly large on our father's side, so every year they would have it at a large cabin in the park. And honestly, it's one of my favorite places. It's tucked right in the middle of a city and is a gorgeous park with hiking trails and ancient history. What's not to love? There is a large ceremonial mound that you can see in just a wonderful aura about the park. I remember every time I go there, you just, you [01:02:00] feel positive and very happy. Shane: ceremony. Now you should explain what a burial mound is like for Native Americans. Josh: A burial mound is a large mound of moved earth that, native people have used to bury, usually someone of high importance Usually chiefs. everybody else, their bodies were just entered back into the earth. They didn't like preserve bodies or anything, but they also made mounds that were for ceremonial purposes, usually aligned up with, the solstice of the sun, , for the seasons. And they, had very, great spiritual significance to them. And growing up here in the Midwest, it's easy to forget that this area had a vast, enrich history that extends past cornfields and hoeing. I had to add that, I'm sorry. This area has been inhabited for thousands of years by several native tribes, and those mounds and artifacts are what is [01:03:00] left of once thriving cultures and civilizations. The kaho mounds were built around 10 50 AD by the Mississippian Natives. At its peak, it had a population of up to 50,000 inhabitants, and it was actually the largest city north of Mexico until around 1200 ad. Shane: Wow. Josh: The park covers 2,200 acres or around 3.5 square miles, but the ancient city was much larger at its apex, around the year 1100, the city covered about six square miles. The mounds are located directly across the Mississippi River from St. Louis, and were a thriving city up until 1400 AD they were first discovered in 1811 by a future congressman named Henry Breckenridge. After he was staying in St. Louis, [01:04:00] he had a habit of journaling, things he discovered during his travels, and he wrote in his journal, I crossed the Mississippi at St. Louis, and after passing through the wood that borders the river and half a mile in width, entered an extensive open plane. In 15 minutes. I found myself in the midst of a group of mounds, mostly of a circular shape, and at a distance resembling enormous haystacks scattered through a meadow. One of the largest, which I ascended, was about 200 paces in circumference at the bottom. The form nearly square. Though it had evidently undergone considerable alterations from the washing of the rains, Shane: resembling, he Josh: was level with the area sufficient to contain several hundred men around me. I counted 20 mounds or pyramids beside a great number of small artificial elevations. [01:05:00] Pursuing my walk along the banks of the Cahokia, I passed eight others in the distance of three miles before I arrived at the principal assemblage. When I reached the foot of the largest mound, I was struck with a degree of astonishment, not unlike that which is experienced and contemplating the Egyptian pyramids and could not help exclaiming what a stupendous pile of earth To heap up. Such a mass must have required years and the labor of thousands were not for the regularity and design, which it manifests the circumference of its being on the alluvial ground and the other mounds scattered around it. We could scarcely believe it, the work of human hands. It is now a World Heritage site in Cal Hoia was composed of three boroughs connected to each other by waterways and walking trails that extended [01:06:00] across the Mississippi River floodplain. Its general population was, mostly agriculturalist who grew large amounts of corn and craft specialists who built beautiful pots shell, jewelry arrows and Flint clay figurines. Shane: No, I want to go there. Josh: I know it's, I put the whole journal entry just because he painted such a vivid picture of it and I just, when I read it the first time, I pictured what he was seeing in my head and I just found that face, like to be able to see it for the first time. Un undo up. Shane: Right. The Josh: is one of many large earth and mound complexes that dot the landscapes of the Ohio and Mississippi River Valleys and across the southeast. Despite archeological evidence that these mound complexes were the work of sophisticated Native American civilizations, this rich history was obscured by the myth of the [01:07:00] mound builders, a narrative that arose to explain the existence of the mounds. I remember hearing about those when we were younger at Mound State Park. It's like a group of like giant, fictional creatures that built these things because, oh, native Americans couldn't possibly examining both the history of the Cal Hoia and the historic myths that were created to explain it reveals the troubling roles that early archeologist played in, diminishing or even eradicating the achievements of the early civilizations on the North American continent. Just as the US government was expanding westward by taking control of Native American lands, the ancient city is enormous, especially compared to the mound that I'm used to in Anderson. It was comprised of around 190 mounds in the platform and circular [01:08:00] shapes aligned to a plain city grid oriented five degrees east of north. Shane: around Josh: alignment of the city is tied to the summer solstice, sunrise, and the southern maximum. Moon orienting khoya to the movement of both the sun and the moon. I found that extra fascinating. Shane: Mm-hmm. Josh: The city was actually a melting pot for the area with people moving there from other tribes and resulted in different dialects, cultures and histories. When I read that, I thought, Ooh, if I could turn back time, oh, I would be a reporter there. , I just pictured myself as a reporter, like just interviewing these people, and I just, I found it so interesting. The ancient civilizations like, what Gods did you worship? What do you have for breakfast on a normal day? It's the small details of their lives that I find interesting. The most. The largest mound at Cahokia was Monks Mound, a platform mound about [01:09:00] 100 feet high, and served as the city's Central Point uncovered 13 acres of. Shane: mound Josh: Mound was named for the community of Trappist Monks who resided there for a short time after Euro Americans settled in the area. So not only did it have Native Americans, it had European monks live there as well for a short time. Excavation on the top of the monk's mound has revealed evidence of a large building, likely a temple or the residence of the Paramount Chief, which would've been seen throughout the entire city. And front of the mound was a large open plaza that held a chunk yard to play the popular sport of chunk knee. Shane: been Josh: This game was watched by thousands of spectators and was played by two large groups who had run across the plaza lobbying spears at a rolling stone disc. The goal of the game was to land their spear at the point where the disc would stop rolling. Shane: speed. Josh: [01:10:00] I. Honestly cannot think of a time where I've been educated on Native American sports. I've never heard of them playing sports. I found that incredibly fascinating. In addition to the chunky yard, I love the name too. Upright marker post and additional platform mounts were weighted along the plaza edges. Ridgetop burial mounds were placed along Kaho Central organizing grid, and marked by the rattlesnake causeway and along the city limits. It was built pretty rapidly, especially for the size, with thousands of people coming together to participate in this construction. This next part I found extremely delight. As far as archeologists, no, there was no forced labor used to build these mounds. Instead, people came together for big feasts and gathered, that celebrated the construction of the mounds. It was considered an [01:11:00] actable loyalty and faith to participate in the construction of them. So when you think of the pyramids and these large ancient structures, you often think of, oh, someone was forced into slave labor to do this, and I just found that just a nice cheerful piece of ancient history. Like, oh, these people actually, they enjoyed building. Shane: these people, right. And Josh: And you know me, I'm all about energy, so I believe, I'd love to go visit it cuz I'm like, the energy of the builders alone was joyous in creating this. It must have a lot of residual positive energy, Shane: right? Josh: The workers dug using stone tools and carried the dirt in woven baskets that they carried on their backs. Usually weighing over 50 pounds. Each trip over the 300 year period that it took to build the area, it would've taken over 15 million baskets of dirt to construct it. Now that's devotion Shane: kidding. And Josh: like I said earlier, it was built [01:12:00] extremely quick in ancient civilization. 300 years, especially for something that large is extremely quick. The splendor of the mounds was visible to the first white people who described them, but they thought that the American Indians known to early white settlers could not have built any of the great earthworks that dotted the mid-continent. So the question became then who built the mounds? Early explorers working to answer the question of who built the mounds, attributed them to the Totex Vikings, Welshman, Hindus, and basically everyone else, but Native Americans. It seemed that any group other than the Native American Indians could serve as the likely architects of the Great Earth works. The impacts of this narrative led to some of early America's most rigorous archeology, as the quest to determine where these mounds came from, became conversation pieces for America's [01:13:00] middle and upper class. According to William Bertrams early journals, the Creek and the Cherokee who lived around the mounds attributed their construction to the ancients many ages prior to their arrival and possessing of this country. So to answer the question from your, what tribes lived in the area, the Creek Cherokee, and the Mississippians, just to name a few. Barre's account of Creek and Cherokee histories led to the view that these Native Americans were colonizers, just like Euro Americans. This served as one more way to justify the removal of Native Americans from their ancestral lands. They thought if the Native Americans were early colonizers too, the logic went then white Americans just had much right to the land as the indigenous people. So just that on itself just struck me like the nerve First they [01:14:00] discover it and the natives are like, oh no, our ancestors built that. And they're like, no, you couldn't possibly you. You must have taken it. And if you took it, then we can take it from you. And I'll get outta here. Like just, ugh, Shane: Bunch of white men. Josh: Yes, the erasure of native cultures and for what? So we can have a Dollar General every five miles. And a crumbling society of consumer culture. Can we have a redo? Shane: consumer Josh: Something interesting from a separate mound? During the excavation of Mound 72, a ridge top burial mound, south of the main urban precinct archeologist, found the remains of a man in his forties, who is probably an important cajon ruler. The man was buried on a bed of more than 20,000 marine shell disc beads arraigned in the shape of a falcon with the bird's head appearing beneath and beside the man's head and its wings and tail beneath his arms and legs. Shane: [01:15:00] birds. How do you want to be buried, Josh? Josh: that way please. The chief was responsible for keeping the balance between the spiritual forces between the upper and lower world. He was also responsible for maintaining order and harmony among his people. He ruled the earth and spoke to the sky, and his authority was unquestionable. The Falcon Warrior, was very important in Mississippian culture. In addition, a large amount of finally worked arrowheads in a variety of different styles and material were found near the grave of this important man. The arrowheads were even separated into four different types, each with a different geographical region. The arrowheads demonstrate the city's extensive trade links throughout North America, arche. Discovered more than 250 other skeletons within that same mound. Scholars [01:16:00] believe 62% of these were sacrificial victims based on signs of ritual execution, method of burial, and other factors. Some of the other skeletons include four young males missing their hands, and skulls a mass grave of more than 50 women around 21 years old with the bodies arranged in two layers, separated by matting Shane: hands Josh: and a mass burial containing 40 men and women who appear to have been violently killed. Some of them may have even been buried alive. A quote from an archeologist from the vertical position of some of the fingers, which appeared to have been digging in the sand. It is apparent that not all of the victims were dead when they were entered. That some had been trying to pull themselves out of the massive bodies. I like that they didn't use slave labor and I'm not, condoning sacrifices, but I understand that was their religion and, that was a way of life back [01:17:00] then. And not saying I'm glad it happened, but I'm not saying I don't find that fascinating as well. Shane: Yeah. See, I always, well, first of all, before I say that, the caveat to those. Is, I am always fearful of saying anything that I feel like might get me canceled. But when it comes to history, stuff like this, I am one of those people that I draw a line in the sand like for this, I understand that was their religious practice, but they shouldn't have been doing it. Right. Now I do not agree with the argument that people will, say, well, you know, that's why Europeans were trying to, make them more, educated because they were quote unquote savages. Um, y'all were in Europe doing much worse things than what they were doing, Josh: so to quote unquote witches and children. I Shane: Right. So the fact that they were [01:18:00] doing this for their religious, sacrificing and stuff, , and, not all Native Americans were practicing that. Right. But, I don't think that it was okay. It was definitely not okay to do it. It's interesting to look back and figure out, why this society back then found it acceptable. Because I think in my history mind, it's always interesting for me to find what society sees as acceptable and how that changes over time. Josh: changes over. Right. Shane: like, for example, you'll find some native societies who will have sacrificed people during periods, and then that falls out of acceptable behavior, just like, you Josh: or they'll do it in times of dire need. Yeah. Shane: And that's an extreme form of what I'm about to say, but that happens even in our society now where things change and they fall out of being acceptable in society.[01:19:00] For example, Josh: woke would be the term people use nowadays. Which I'm like, you mean empathy, right? Education. Right. But Shane: Even, five or 10 years ago, you could do things or say things that were acceptable and you can't do those things now. A lot of those things I agree with, I definitely prefer the term, , disabled. I completely agree that is definitely the term that we should use for people who are disabled, not calling them the r. Josh: completely right. Shane: So those things like that I think are more acceptable, in our parents or grandparents's memory, they will remember a time when women were sent to mental hospitals because they were opinionated Josh: Right? How dare Shane: they were pregnant out of wedlock or because their husbands didn't want them anymore, Josh: scandal. She ain't happy and cleaning. What do I do with Shane: yeah. But society was acceptable of that behavior at that time. And it changed for the better. But looking back on it, we can [01:20:00] say that was unacceptable. And it's hard because, especially for native people, that's not our culture. So it's people will get their, hands up in the air of, you can't judge other cultures based on your culture. Josh: which even Shane: Uh, I just don't like when people are hurting each other. That's where I think, for me, I like to be able to say for myself if I feel like something's acceptable or unacceptable, because that's when I know that I can draw the line on if I'll try to cult or not, for example. Right. and I draw the line firmly on acceptable or unacceptable behavior if you're hurting people. Josh: unacceptable. Exactly. And a lot of these people, yes. Even though some were found to be, have been buried alive, that doesn't mean that they. Weren't, to a degree, again, this was their culture. So it was an honor to be a sacrifice to the Shane: They may have volunteered for Josh: for Right. And then, you know, you get [01:21:00] in that situation, who wouldn't panic? I mean, Shane: Well, and their idea at the time could have been that was just them evolving to a different plane or whatever the deal Josh: right. Going up to the spaceship Shane: I know. A big question in modern times now. Is, medical assisted suicide. Yeah. That's a big debate. I'm not going to debate it, Josh: not gonna give my opinion, but Shane: Because the opinion will, be not what a lot of people want to hear. Josh: will like it, Shane: some will agree with it, some will not. And I will hear from the people who will not like it. But, all to say that there will always be people who agree and disagree, and times change and people change and their opinions change and that's okay. I think as societies change and as cultures change, they change for the better and that behavior. It would be a shame to not be able to look back at things like that, like sacrificing [01:22:00] and not be able to say they, that's wrong. People shouldn't sacrifice one another because that's what will prevent our culture and other cultures from being able to do that regardless of our culture doing it. Now, if we as a society and as a culture say that's unacceptable behavior, we won't tolerate other cultures being able to feel like that's acceptable behavior. So I understand the other argument. And the other argument is, that's not your culture. Don't have an opinion about it. Josh: And I'm not demeaning it in any way. I ultimately find it fascinating, especially, my main fascination with it are the ones that, , voluntarily, like some of these young women throughout a lot of, ancient civilizations that were offered to sacrifices, it was almost like their wedding day, they were pampered, treated like a queen, gone. They were basically like [01:23:00] marrying the gods and it was an honor and just, I find that so interesting to be happy to about, to have your heart ripped outta your Shane: right. Josh: . Well, the relationship between the beru mounts to the central burial was unclear, all the sacrifices to the chief. Then they were unlikely to all have been, buried at the same time. They found that out by, looking at wood in several parts of the mounds that had been radiocarbon dated to between nine 50 and 1000 CE Excavations have indicated that Mound 72 was not constructed as a single mound, but rather as a series of smaller mounds. These mounds were reshaped and covered to give Mound 72, its Final Ridge top shape. So it originally started as one and then they just kept building larger ones, which actually a lot ancient sites are like that. The pyramids in Mexico, for example, they [01:24:00] are originally started as like one smaller pyramid and then have been built upon to the size that they are now. They used machinery. I don't know what, they used, but to look at the different pyramids underneath it. Shane: that's pretty cool. Josh: perfect. I did a whole episode on dark gods and sacrifices on my other podcasts, so I'm a little educated on it. Shane: the popul. Josh: of Cahokia began to decline during the 13th century, and the site was abandoned. Around 1350 to 1400 scholars have proposed environmental factors such as the environmental degradation through overhunting, deforestation and pollution, and climactic changes such as increased flooding and droughts, as explanations for the abandonment of the site. Now, normally Native Americans, that was their whole culture, was to not use the land in a way that would make it unusable. They, even did controlled [01:25:00] burnings, They had a very extensive ancient knowledge of, that's why they migrated, oh, this land we've used all that we can, now we have to migrate to a new area so this land can heal and we can still flourish. But when this large city began, they started to develop problems that all large cities do, overpopulation, crime, and even garbage. Up to 50,000 people were living in this area, that's 50,000 people going to the bathroom every single day. They, it is gotta go somewhere. Just even that, the buildup of that, they weren't able to, sustain the land like normal Native American people do. Shane: However, Josh: more recent research suggests that there's no evidence of human caused erosion or flooding at cahokia. Another possible cause is invasion by outside people. Though the only evidence of warfare found are the defensive wooden stockade and watch towers that enclosed kah Hoya's main [01:26:00] ceremonial precinct. There's no other evidence for warfare. So it may have been more for ritual or formal separation more than military purposes. Diseases transmitted among the large dense urban population are another possible cause of the decline. There are even some theories, that propose conquest induced political collapse as the primary reason for its decline. Them getting taken over by, rival tribes and, the cultural trying to sw, it'd be like going from Baptist to Catholic. There's gonna be fights happening together with. Factors. Researchers found evidence in 2015 of major flooding at Cahokia so severe as to flood dwelling places. And this was natural flooding, not human caused. Again, they used canals and water manmade waterways throughout the city, and they thought maybe that they [01:27:00] overdid it and it flooded, but there is evidence of a major natural flood in the area. Sediment analysis from beneath Horseshoe Lake has revealed that two major floods occurred in the period of settlement at Kochia and roughly around 1260 and another one around, 1340. So the last one was right around the time when the area was abandoned. During the last 100 years, extensive archeological research has changed our understanding of the mounds. They are no longer viewed as isolated monuments created by a mysterious race. Instead, the mounds of North America have been proven to be constructed by Native American peoples for a variety of purposes today. Some tribes, like the Mississippi Band of Choctaw, view these mounds as central places tying their communities to their ancestral lands. When I think of ancient civilizations and location, my mind [01:28:00] goes straight to South America, Egypt, Ireland, and Italy even. I love discovering that there are ancient areas right here, literally all around US and Indiana. rich cultural heritage, myths, beliefs, religions, artifacts, God's ghosts, and even recipes. All flourished in what is now the Bible be of America. Shane: ghost. Josh: easy to forget that before the trees were cut down to create fields for corn in the buildings of Chicago before the great fire, this area was once nothing but a massive unending forest, filled with an abundance of resources to allow numerous civilizations to grow and thrive for thousands of years until the cloning of white devils. I had to end on that. That's fine. I got that from that podcast. Crimes from the East. That's what, Pia calls them and [01:29:00] I just, I can't call them anything else. , settlers, you mean cloning and white devils? But that is all I have for, the kochia mounds. Shane: have. That's very interesting. Josh: Yeah. I tried to find, I found a couple like cold case murders and stuff, and some of the smaller cities, but I wasn't able to find enough information about them to, make something substantial. Alright, Shane: So that's all that I had. Is that all that you had? Josh: have? That is, we gave them a, good, it was a two hour helmet. Shane: no, that was about an hour and a half. . Josh: Well, if you want to hear more from Mystery Inc. We have our unmasked episode that we'll be Shane: Starting right Josh: now. Yeah, Shane: It's gonna be on Josh: on after a bathroom break. Shane: Well, what are your, what's your topic gonna be? I'm gonna be talking about a whole mystery. It's gonna be on the disappearance of Amelia Earhart. Josh: I actually, just have a little bit more [01:30:00] about the native cultures and I found a little funny, quiz. I thought that we could do Shane: Oh, it's gonna be fun. Well, if you enjoy listening to Mr. Inc, you can leave a review for us on Apple Podcast or a rating on Spotify. Josh: good review. Yes. A bad one. Don't bother. Yeah, Shane: just don't waste your Josh: go. Go for a coffee. Shane: go find something. I love feedback. This week comes to us from Rpy, which was via email. Josh: R. Shane: Good morning gang. RPI says, I have finally listened to episode one and I really enjoyed it. I tried to leave feedback on Spotify, but my old sleep deprived brain couldn't figure it out, so you get an email. I wanted to say that the line about not being extra and other people are sometimes not enough. Damn. Do I feel that deep in my Leo soul? I had to pause the show and take a few minutes with that. Josh, do you remember saying that? Yes. That was so funny. You need to put that on some merch and [01:31:00] take all my money. Josh: take Shane: all my money. Take all my money. I have been told over and over that I'm too much to handle and too much effort. Nah, fam, you are just not enough. Bye-bye. Mm-hmm. Anyway, love the pod. Love the vibe, and we love you Rpy. That was so nice. Josh: Thank you. Rpi. To me that's one of the rudest things you could say to somebody is you're, just being a little too much. I'm like, how dare you? Shane: Or your personality is just too big. Josh: a, you got a big personality. Shane: you're boring. Get outta here Josh: It's cause you can't handle my sunshine. Go stand in the shade. I got a whole bunch of them. I got, I love old Southern women and they're just nothing but a saying for everything. Shane: well, one of my favorites that grandma used to always say was, it'll all come out in the Josh: Yep. Shane: anytime. Josh: Miranda Lambert song just because of Grandma used to say it. Shane: know. Well, and she came out with that kind of recently, but grandma used to say, when we were really young, it was a saying that [01:32:00] she said, her grandma used to always say. Josh: It's a common southern phrase. It all come out in the Shane: all come out in the warsh. Josh: it does. Shane: Mm-hmm. It always does. Well, don't forget, you can sign up for our email@example.com slash it's Mystery Inc. Or you can find our premium episodes on Apple Podcast Premium to unlock our unasked episodes, and we might also start making bonus, , additional bonus episodes here soon. Josh: Possibly weekly. Yeah. Shane: So just stay tuned for that and Josh: We're getting a lot of, getting a lot of, do more episodes, so we're trying, we're trying. Shane: We want weekly stuff. We want to hear from you more, Josh: Shane is leaving, for Europe and Shane: Yeah. I'll be gone for a month. Josh: you're going in June. So he's, trying to catch up on getting all of his other podcasts as well before he leaves for a whole month. We will see you guys on Unmasked or next time here on Mystery Inc.[01:33:00] Shane: See you soon. Bye.