Feb. 1, 2023

4: Doppelganger, Twins, and Serial Killers

4: Doppelganger, Twins, and Serial Killers

JINKIES! Hey Gang! Welcome to another episode of Mystery Inc.

On this episode brothers Shane and Josh start with the mystery of a convicted serial killer from their hometown - but there is a lot of argument and mystery surrounding if he is an actual serial killer or not. Larry Hall is a fascinating serial killer if he is one, the brother’s would love to hear your opinion!

The second story shared in this episode is on the mystery behind doppelgangers! Both stories involve look-alikes oddly enough.

To listen to our UNMASKED episode, and help support the show, you can join our Patreon or Apple Podcast Premium.

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Mystery Inc Reg 2/1 === [00:00:00] [00:00:34] Check, check. That ain't working. You can't hear anything. Oh, that's because you need to, um, might need to turn your volume up. [00:00:43] Yours is number four. Now try. Here we go. Ah, no. Now you can hear . Now you are gonna blow out your eardrums. . Is that my voice? All righty, there we go. It's like when you [00:01:00] check your answer machine. Remember when we all had answer machines and you had to leave that little tape voicemail, your answer machine, and you're you'd play it back and you're like, oh my Lord, is that what I sound like? [00:01:13] You felt like you needed to issue an apology at the end of the message? I remember that. And then I stopped doing a personal recording when like telemarketers and scammers kept increasing and calling, I'm like, Nope. They don't need to know it's me. . They can let the robot, hi, you've reached blah, blah, blah. [00:01:33] Those were fun times, but I remember the little bitty tapes that you'd have to get to go put into the little answer machines. Oh, yeah. And then you'd have to go and you'd have to actually like, push the button and everyone would have to stand in front of it to leave your name in your actual voicemail, and you'd have to keep redoing it until it was perfect and people would come up with funny little ones and, yeah. [00:01:55] I even remember when caller Id first started coming around and [00:02:00] before that, know, you just had to cold answer your phone and hope it was someone you wanted to speak to. Then caller Id, we'd just sit there and watch the box as someone called and like, Hmm, I'm not answering that. Not today. And this makes us sound old to some people and young, to really young to others, but we're both in our very early thirties, very early , very early thirties. [00:02:25] The other day, I was, by the other day, I mean like a couple months ago, I learned what a party line was. Do you know what that is? Like when kind of like on mean girls where you can talk to multiple people at once? No, a party line is an older term. Was when in a whole, bunch of homes I guess would share the same line. So like, I know it's so foreign to us, but I guess you would go to use the phone and you'd pick it up and you'd have to make sure that no one on your street, was on your line. So that you could use the phone. [00:02:58] No wonder the [00:03:00] local busy bodies knew everything. They probably just sat there on the, the phone like mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm Betty was sitting there with her hand over the, voice thing. Just listening in. I'd you breathing. I remember when phones were first invented, I read, something about how they were like, I think maybe seven telephone at the time when they first came out and they were all on one line. [00:03:21] So if you had to call somebody, you just, you had to pick it up first to make sure there's nobody else on there. That'd be so weird. . God, could you imagine we'd never get a call out today? Although I don't use my phone for that. I know I tried. Text me. We tried getting a hold of you a couple weeks ago. [00:03:39] Oh, I mentioned that his phone don't do that. . Well, I don't even ever have the sound on just because the noise of my phone ringing just instantly puts anxiety into me. I'm like, oh God. Right. Someone's dead. Or I'm being audited. . Well, you leave your phone in do not disturb, don't you? Most of the time. [00:03:59] [00:04:00] Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. People think I'm joking, but I'm like, no, I, I don't use my phone for that. Everything else. But calling . Speaking of like dead zones, we just came back from literally the woods. Yes. We were in cabins with some friends and we had no cell phone service, no wifi. Living off the grid. [00:04:19] Off the grid. Off the grid. You were a block from a nice lodge with an indoor pool and restaurant. . Yeah. And we had a kitchen and bedrooms and it's, I always think that I can live in the woods. Off the grid and I feel like I could after some time, but you really realize how addicted you are to especially social media cuz anytime there was an awkward silence or anything, you instantly just go to your phone to, oh, let me mindlessly scroll. [00:04:49] And I kept doing that and. , no internet. I'm like, dang it. I just want to see all the people I'm used to seeing every day on Instagram . Right? And at one point in time I thought, [00:05:00] so this is what it's like to have to go get wood and , to keep warm. But then I thought our childhood, well then I thought, wait a minute, Shane. [00:05:07] The wood is precut, it's dried already for us. And it's right next to the cabin. Like this is really glamorous for us, you know? Oh yeah. It's the white bread version of off the grid. Everything's kind of there for you, just in the bare minimum. The kitchen had one frying pan and one pot in a can opener. [00:05:28] But I'm like, I can make do with that. And we had fried chicken one night there. . We will get into our stories in just a second. I wanted to tell you this cuz I know that we haven't had a chance to talk about this, but, we were actually for those listening, we were traveling for some history stories. [00:05:44] That's why we were out in the woods for one of my podcasts. It's a history podcast. The very last interview that I did , I was able to locate this historian lady who had a very fascinating life, on our Instagram. I'll share a couple [00:06:00] photos of her from my interview with her. [00:06:02] Obsessed with her look, her little car. Did you see her photo? Yeah. Her. Oh my. I was like, oh, I love her. Well, we get there to her little cabin out in the woods and it was snowing. We are up in the mountains, right? And I was getting very nervous, going out to her house cuz I was like, is my car gonna make it, you know, so, We get to her house. [00:06:21] She has a donkey. She has turkeys like running wild. My kind of lady. Yeah. She has this huge dog. I wanna say it's like a massive of some kind. A huge dog. The funny thing about the dog though is you just want to hug it like it looks like a big huggable dog. Like real fluffy to la Barks . Well, no, when it barked it was like the lowest boo [00:06:46] Yeah, but it was so low, but it wasn't loud. It was like, it was just so funny. I've never heard a bark lo there spot. Yeah. Poor lobe guy. It was just really funny. But we go into her home [00:07:00] and she was, a really, really cool lady. Lived a very fascinating life, very fascinating. Eccentric would be the word I would use. [00:07:10] Just from the picture you sent me. , she is like goals for me. Yeah. I want to be her when I'm an older little old lady. Yeah. Yeah. And while we're doing the interview and she's telling me about the history of the area and the pioneers that came there, she was sitting there using, do you remember what that thing is called? [00:07:30] It's what , she was tur It's Kendall. Yeah, I think so. She was turning sheep wool into yarn. Right in front of my eyes. I was so mesmerized. I was just trying to focus on my questions and she's just sitting there spinning this thing with her foot and she's just like, yeah, this is what they would've used back then , to make yarn. [00:07:50] And I was just like, uh, really? ? She's like, yep, that's how I made this hat. And I was just like, okay. She's like, and I dyed the yarn, with, just dyes from [00:08:00] plants. I made poke, berry dye and . Yeah. And it was just so funny. Then her wood burning, stove was next to us and she looked over to our audio engineer and she's like, you mind throwing a log in the fire sign? [00:08:14] Oh. And he's like, yeah, sure, uh, you just want water? She goes, well, I suppose you should just fill it up, . And he goes, okay. And she goes, if you want, you could go out there and get more wood and put it, it there next to the fire. And I thought for a moment , , we're gonna start doing chores here in a minute. [00:08:33] This, lady is pretty small. You mind getting the eggs? Mm-hmm. . I had a lot of that, just working at the nursing home. Ladies of that generation, they ha they do, they'll be like, do you mind going over there and grabbing that? Oh wow. You're over there. You mind cleaning this and doing that? And my, I'm actually, my floors need mopped too, if you're willing. [00:08:51] Yeah. She actually moved there in this very rural area from New York City. She lived Wow. On Broadway, right [00:09:00] above where all the theaters were. And she's met a lot of who would later become famous poets and other famous people. Jesus. Yeah. Jesus. Which reminds me that we have some funny reviews of people who said that they've liked your Oh yeah. [00:09:15] My Jesus moments. Yeah. , I'll let you, Josh, pick some reviews at the end to read. But if you do leave reviews, we do read them. We send them to each other so we do get a good kick out of them. Oh yeah. Yeah. That made my day. Cuz you never know how people are gonna take work when you put it out there. [00:09:32] And that one I read it while I was in Walmart and cracked up. Probably got a few awkward stares, like, what's his problem? Right. Well, let me rephrase that. We read the good reviews. If you leave us a bad one, you're dead to us. We don't read those. Although if it's really bad, I might start a little, side thing on Instagram where I read them like slam poetry, like as little real dramatic. [00:09:55] Because, you know, even a negative review, you're still listening. I appreciate all [00:10:00] listeners like that Cardi B song. Yeah. Or no, no, no. Was it like an awards ceremony or something where she went up there and she's like, I'd like to thank all my haters too. Oh yeah. Cuz you're still listening. [00:10:10] You're still downloading. Yeah. Oh yeah. I thought that was funny. Let's go ahead and get into our topic before we get hate emails. , right? That some people do not like when we talk too much. But what we found is that we start sitting down talking about things, then we figure out that we have a lot of things that we needed to talk about. [00:10:29] We're like, oh yeah, we're, recording . Oh. And there's a microphone of our face. So before we get started, Josh. My topic today is about a suspected serial killer. Ooh. Yeah. Not my topic. So I was a little worried. I was like, if he picks my topic today, I'm gonna, well, people would have a conspiracy theory that we are in cahoots. [00:10:51] We're just working side by side. Right. That we actually do know what each other is gonna be talking about. And this is all pre-planned. And I gave [00:11:00] him one clue and I sent him a GIF of the twins from the Shining. And that is all that he knows. And he probably didn't even know it was a clue. No, I didn't. [00:11:08] No. Because we sent each other so much stuff, so much gifts and so much. That's why I did it. Images. And I was like, he might, he probably won't know what this is, but I'm still giving him a clue. We're mystery ink. I have to give you clues. Right. Well, and we were in the woods and a cabin, so I feel like the whole shining thing came up a lot. [00:11:25] Just because we were in the cabin. Exactly. So the suspected serial killer that, that I'm gonna talk about is actually one that is from our town. Oh, this one right here? Yeah, this one right here. Oh, heavens. One that you probably have heard me talk about before. Do you know who I'm talking about? You know, I can't remember names. [00:11:45] I know . I have the same problem too. I have, I'm really bad with names, but, Larry Hall is who I'm going to train Yes. Talking about. Good. Yes. So Larry Hall is a very interesting figure. I've been working on, Larry [00:12:00] Hall series for foul play crime series for a while now. , but I thought for the sake of this podcast, I'd like to, talk about him in a conversation, and go over some things with him, because I do think that there's a big mystery here when it comes to Larry, and a lot of you are probably not familiar with Larry. [00:12:23] But I think you're gonna wonder why you aren't, because it's a very interesting case and he's a very interesting person, and the entire scenario around him is just unbelievable. So, Larry, if his name at all sounds familiar to you. Recently there was a movie that came out, on Larry Hall. It came out on Apple tv. [00:12:52] Oh. Did you know that? No, have several streaming services. The Apple, apple TV is not one of those. Oh, I gotcha. The series has [00:13:00] called Blackbird. Okay. So Blackbird is about Larry Hall. It takes place. It specifically follows, a character. His name is, Jimmy Keen, and it specifically takes place in just one small portion of the story. [00:13:20] , it's a, it's an important part of the story, but it just barely touches the surface of Larry's life and what happened. And by barely touching the surface, I mean barely touching the surface. But what's also ironic about the series is that I had been working on that series and interviewing people for it for probably a good six or seven months when Apple had started announcing that they were going to be releasing a series on it. [00:13:54] And it's just a very interesting case and I'm really surprised they only decided [00:14:00] to release just a small snip of just one part of his story what I know about it. Just from when you would talk with Brent about it. Mm-hmm. . And it was very interesting to where you guys were just talking to each other and I'd hear something and I'm like, tell me more. [00:14:15] Yeah. So I'll talk a little bit more about Blackbird near the end, because the Blackbird covers the ending part of, what gets Larry into prison. And it talks about his prison life. But it misses a lot of things and it doesn't cover a lot of things that are pretty important. And it's kind of unclear to me why they miss out on a lot of things. [00:14:40] Maybe they're taking the easy way out and they're just turning a book into a series. Maybe that's it. I'm not sure. Left it open to where if it was popular they could, you know, do a whole series of it. Yeah. And Apple, if you're listening, come knock on my door. You know, you have an iPhone. [00:14:57] They're, they've been listening. That's where they got inspired to do [00:15:00] this series. . Right? Well, there's just so much more to it than what they did and it's a good series. I would recommend people watch it cuz the parts that they include is important, but there's just a lot more to it. Would just make it so much better, I think. [00:15:18] And he is in prison. He is in prison for life. I'm like, uh, we're in this town. Can you come like walking down here, ? Yeah. Yeah. But there's a lot more to the story than what you would even imagine. So I say that Larry Hall is a suspected serial killer because even those who know about him would argue if he is a serial killer or not. [00:15:47] And the reason is, because Larry is very unique. Larry seems to either he's a very low IQ individual or he [00:16:00] is hiding behind this persona of. Being an idiot, basically. I wouldn't know anything about that. , . But I want to back up just a little bit and talk a little bit more about Larry's life here in Wabash and him growing up, because I do think that whatever Larry later becomes is important to the story. [00:16:21] Okay. And that will help those listening, make their own conclusion on what might have happened. So, Larry Dwayne Hall was born a twin here in Wabash, in Indiana. That's, I thought, yeah. He was a twin here in Wabash, Indiana. , he was born in December of 1962. What's important about Larry being a twin is that he spent several days in intensive care after he was born because his twin brother did what people would call feeding on him in the womb. [00:16:56] Mm-hmm. They call this a [00:17:00] monochro, I think is how it's pronounced. It's a very long word, , but I'm gonna try it to pronounce it one more time. Aron pregnancy. Okay. And if that's wrong, I'm sorry. But basically it's when you have, a twin and one of them starts feeding on your nutrients and stuff and starts feeding on you in the womb. [00:17:23] So because of that, Larry was in very bad shape when he was born. Malnourished, . Yeah. So he's a very bad shape when he was born and he was in, intensive care, so he had to stay in intensive care for several days later. After he grows up just a little bit, and he's a young kid. [00:17:43] They're living. Not a very great life. His dad is a sexton at a cemetery, the big one here in town. Just like half a block from my house. . , yeah. Yeah. The huge cemetery. Huge one in the middle of town.[00:18:00] It's very big and it's very old. The biggest here in town. Huge. Yeah. very big. So Larry, at a very, very young age, starts helping his dad dig, craves, as one does, right? [00:18:19] Right. One does. But what Blackbird suggests, and I've not been able to verify this with anyone who would know this information yet, so I'm not sure where they get this information. Not saying that it's not accurate, but Blackbird suggests that during that process of. Helping his dad dig graves, his dad would force him to grave rob. [00:18:47] But also what's important to know is during all of the process of digging graves, Larry had to interact and, he was [00:19:00] introduced to a lot of dead people. And that's very uncommon for children. Right. So at a time when we know that Larry didn't have friends in school, starting from a very young age, he was very socially, kind of awkward to himself. [00:19:18] The only. . Other things that he came in contact with were dead people at the cemetery. Oh. And the place that he would hang around was at the cemetery. Well, we did that growing up, but we just happened to live by Juan and it was safer than going to the park . Right. But we didn't see the dead people or help dig their graves. [00:19:39] Right. Or, you know, so there was a big difference. I do think that lifestyle probably had a lot to do with it and, could have helped shape the way that Larry May have seen, how deceased people might be, treated or how he can react to them, , [00:19:58] What he can do with [00:20:00] them maybe, and , just being completely comfortable around dead people. Oh, definitely. At that young age. Most people, you're usually in your teens before your parents will, let you go to a funeral or something. And I can't imagine growing up being just accustomed to Yeah. [00:20:16] Deceased bodies. Yeah. And can you imagine most kids have imaginary friends and toys and stuff, but he's out there dealing with just dead people and possible grave robbing. Yeah. And in one scene in Blackbird, his dad is having him remove a ring and he couldn't get the ring off and he throws down a pair of pliers Oh my god. [00:20:39] To remove the ring. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. So Larry has to learn that after someone dies, their body doesn't really matter. So you kind of get a sense that maybe death just means something different to Larry. Okay. Yeah. So that could be a, very important life lesson that Larry learned from a [00:21:00] very young age. [00:21:01] Because if you think about a death to people, we separate ourselves from death. The only time that we really deal with it is during funerals, and then we close it off. And I want to use the word bury it, , but that's, I don't mean to use that word literally but we don't deal with it again until it comes back. [00:21:21] But we don't always have to deal with death. But Larry seemed from a very young age to always have to be dealing with death, right? And being, it just being his normal. So I think that's a very important thing to keep in mind. But also what we know is that Larry keeps to himself. , the only interaction he has is with these deceased bodies. [00:21:44] It's also shared and known among people who knew him that he seemed to not be a very intelligent person. Growing up. While at school they've said that he had a low iq and a lot of [00:22:00] folks would say that he did not do well in school. Because of that, as a teen, he would get into trouble for arson and doing a lot of petty crimes. [00:22:12] After high school, Larry is able to get a job as a janitor, and he begins traveling around the state and around the country to take part in historical reenactments. He does that with his brother and sometimes he'll bring a friend along too. [00:22:29] , but oftentimes he'll do it either with himself , or he'll bring his twin brother. And sometimes he'll have a friend ride along if it's a far distance as well. Like, civil war type of reenactment. Yeah. Okay. Civil war, reenactments, war of 18, 12 reenactments, those type of reenactments where you're dressing up, you go out to a battlefield for the weekend or how many days you're staying in a tent and there's a whole reenactment. [00:22:56] Okay. That's happening to reenact the war that [00:23:00] happened, he really enjoys that type of atmosphere. It puts him into a different location. And yeah, a little escapism. He gets to play a different person for a little while and not be. His awkward self. Yeah. So it's believed that during that time that, he's going to these historical reenactments. [00:23:20] Again, he's going around the state and around the country. It's believed that during that time, that's when he's also looking for victims. What we know is that when you are able to leave your main area, so when he's able to leave Wabash to look for victims, that makes it harder for police to track down the perpetrator because you commit your crime and then you leave. [00:23:50] But what we know about Larry that will later become very important is that Larry has a very signature van. It [00:24:00] is a panel van. that has no seats in the back. Red flag. Yeah. . It's what everyone just calls a creeper van right now. It's what everyone will start calling, later on people will start seeing it and it just constantly comes up. [00:24:17] But Larry is kind of obsessed about his fan. And, I want to touch one of the thing is people always talk about how Larry had a low iq, but I do want to point out that Larry did seem like, you know, he had a job as a janitor in cleaning specifically, was one thing that he did very well. [00:24:42] So there were things that, although he may have had a low iq, I don't wanna argue that point, but he could do some things very, very well and do them better than a lot of other people. And being a janitor was one of them. He did his job very well, took it very [00:25:00] seriously. And his van seemed to always be one of those things that he always kept very clean, very well kept, and his cleaning was always very well kept as well. [00:25:14] Which now that you think that, okay. Is he a serial killer? Mm-hmm. That could benefit him if he is a very good cleaner. Right. Those always go hand in hand. Right? The first of his murders is believed to have started when he was only 18 years old. This victim was 15 years old. Her name was Dean Peters. [00:25:37] She disappeared from Grand Rapids, Michigan, from her middle school in February of 1981. Her body was never recovered. One thing that's common with a lot of his victims, is that a lot of their bodies are just not recovered. He seems to do a really good job at disposing them and getting rid of them [00:26:00] in a way that their remains are not found and cleaning up in a good fashion where they're not gonna be found. [00:26:08] That's not always the case for whatever reason, sometimes they are not so well hidden, or possibly buried, which I'll later explain one of those possible victims, who wasn't buried. Larry grows a reputation here in Wabash for being somewhat of a troublemaker. [00:26:28] One of these examples I got from a friend of mine, Craig, who is a retired police officer, Craig explained to me, one of these times when Larry set fire to Kmart. , the Kmart is now that building that is the, the biker store. [00:26:47] Okay. Hoover by Walmart. At the time it was a Kmart and he set a fire in the porch area, like in between the front doors. Mm-hmm. . He had set a fire in there [00:27:00] so all the police had to go out and, put the fire out and stuff. And they knew it was him, but the police around town started to become suspicious of Larry and his fan. [00:27:11] They started noticing that when things like that were happening, people were seeing his van. one of the first incidences of Larry first coming on the radar of him. Doing things or being a little creepy is when there were some younger girls outside of a house and, they were, just playing around outside of a house, not a house that gets normal traffic. [00:27:41] And they see this van that's parked nearby on their street, and the person inside has just been watching them. It was two young females. So they run inside and tell the adult that's in the home and they call the police. And the police come out and it's Larry and he's in his van [00:28:00] alone. And they take him in and they question him. [00:28:03] And that's the first report of Larry kind of peeking or creeping on two young girls. And because of that report, That's the first report that would later get him into the eyes of, officers when they start investigating these murders. Okay. It is a small town, so anything of a creepy stature, they don't really have to look too far. [00:28:29] Be like, oh, well we've had like five reports. Yeah. And what officers do in detectives is when they have a victim that looks a certain way or a young child, they're gonna be looking for instances where they have a perpetrator whose vehicle might match that description, or whose person might match that description. [00:28:50] In best case scenario, both vehicle and person, and they are looking or they got caught looking. [00:29:00] at a victim that matches the description as well. A young female around the same age, and that will later happen. , one other point I wanted to mention about Larry going to these, these reenactments is Larry is in a movie , like Legit a movie. [00:29:22] Larry is in a movie, Larry is a extra in a Civil War movie starring Martin Sheen. Jesus. Yeah. He Jesus . Praise him. Amen. Y'all didn't know listening to , you didn't know he was coming to church today, did you? ? Uh, I believe off the top of my head, I did not write this down. That the movie is called Gettysburg. [00:29:49] Okay. I think I've. Watch that in school. Yeah. It is a movie that I am 100% certain that Martin Sheen stars in. [00:30:00] But Larry, his brother was there as well. And one of their friends was at the reenactment as well. We'll have to watch this on our trip. Well, I have pictures of it so we can post it on Instagram of Larry being there with, his brother and his friend. [00:30:17] Yeah. So how weird is that? I think one of my pictures, you can see Larry near Martin Sheen too, that's Charlie Sheen's father, isn't it? Yes. Okay. Trying to picture him. Yes. And he, Martin Sheen played in West. I didn't watch that. Oh my gosh. That's one of the best. [00:30:36] Okay. I watched designing women. Are you kidding? . . All right, so the murder that puts Larry on the map, it happened in September 20th, 1993. It was 15 year old Jessica Roach. She went missing in her hometown of Georgetown, Illinois, which isn't that far from here. Two months later, her remains were found on a cornfield.[00:31:00] [00:31:00] There's a witness that will come forward that says they saw a man driving a van around the cornfield. This would've been in the vicinity that her body was found. And there are several other people who call the police, telling them about a man driving a. talking to girls. Now, the van and the description of what this man looks like will later lead them to Hall because of this police report that comes in from Wabash of these two girls who report this man that I just told you about. [00:31:33] Okay. You know, So that report had linked them to Larry. So what then happens is the officer for the Roach case, Jessica Roach's case, comes here to Wabash from Illinois. And, questions Larry. Now when he gets here to Wabash, the Marion police detectives, for those listening, Marion is a city that's next door. [00:31:59] It is [00:32:00] larger than Wab. Marion detectives, meet that detective here because que they had already questioned Larry on a previous disappearance of a girl who was missing from Indiana Westland University. That's in Marion, correct? [00:32:14] Correct. Okay. Yeah. So they had already questioned him and those detectives , were very, very firm in their belief that Larry is just a low IQ individual and he is not a serial killer. So just to reiterate, the Marion police officers and detectives that were there, there were two of. They've questioned Larry before on the IW student for Marion. [00:32:45] And their belief is that Larry is completely innocent. He's just not smart enough. A low IQ individual. Exactly. And he's not it. Question at what time? [00:33:00] Like timeframe is this what year is this? All 1993. Okay. Yep. So the, the detective from the Roach case gets here. He's surprised to see the Marion officers here. [00:33:11] He's like, hi, what are you guys doing? Can I help you? Yeah. Like, I'm just here to question Larry. And they're like, yeah, we've questioned him before and we just wanted to be here. Larry didn't do this. You're wasting your time. And he's like, okay, well, I'm gonna make sure, thank you for your input, but no thank you. [00:33:28] Yeah. So he goes in to question Larry and. Larry is shown a photo of Jessica Roach and he flins, he makes, , this weird flinch and he is like, I've never seen her. And he then will confess to the detective. Yeah. Yeah. It didn't take long. Okay. Right. So he eventually confesses. Now it's important to note that [00:34:00] during that process of the confession, the Marion police officers, were steadfast in their belief that Larry is innocent, that he is just a repetitive, confessor and he just confesses to things and he is just. [00:34:22] So they are trying to convince this officer, this detective, that Larry's not the guy, he's just gonna confess to it, and he's not it, you know? But the detective didn't believe it and charges him. So , he confesses, he's charged. And in June of 1995, he is found guilty. At the time the FBI believed that he was not only responsible for that case, because you have to keep in mind the FBI gets involved because Larry, it's kind of a very long story. [00:34:57] The FBI gets involved because of Larry being [00:35:00] across state lines, right? And of him possibly being involved with a bunch of different people as well. , so the FBI gets involved and they believe that he's not only responsible for Jessica Roach. , but he's also responsible for the au student, for Marian. [00:35:16] Her name is Tricia Reichler. So I'll talk a little bit about Tricia Reichler. She was an Indiana Westland University student, as I mentioned, from Marian, Indiana. So he does confess to murdering her. He does later recant that confession. Now, what's important to note about his recanting and his confessions is that when he recant, he takes it back. [00:35:50] But he does it in a way where he's kind of like, well, you know, that was not me. That was someone else. I don't know what I was talking about. You know, that couldn't have been me nervous. Yeah, [00:36:00] it couldn't have been me. I would never do that. [00:36:03] and just the way that he confesses to it, it's just a very unique scenario. It's just very, very unique for Tricia. I'll explain what happens to her. So she's an IU student. She's a runner. She's a, it's always the runners track and field star. Right. They're out running in the morning and bam. [00:36:24] Right? Well, she wasn't running that day. she was just a track and field star. She was walking that day from, I believe it was at night. She was walking that night home, back to her dorm from a marsh from a grocery store. Rest in peace on campus. Marsh, right. , right Marsh is no longer, a grocery store. [00:36:48] That's chains fair. That's a fresh job. . Right. So that marsh , is on the edge of campus. It was a dark evening, dark night. She gets there [00:37:00] and she, what we know is that she's there and she leaves. She's never seen again after she leaves. There are no cameras, no nothing. Of course. The only thing of hers that are found are her clothes. [00:37:14] They are found nice and neat, folded and placed next to a small tree. Very weird. That's so creepy. Yeah. Like, oh, that gives me chills. Yes. And we know that she had some buttons that were missing off of her shirt, I believe. So the, it's a very weird. Scenario, like why would that ever happen? If she ran away, why would she remove all her clothes and leave them? [00:37:46] I believe there may have also been blood or something like that, that would lead someone to believe that she was injured. , that was on her clothes. So it's just very unusual that someone would just remove all [00:38:00] her clothing, neatly fold them, and leave them next to a tree. Right. If you're going to then remove her entire body, why would you leave all your clothing? [00:38:11] You respect the clothes more than you did the actual living person. Yeah. And if you go as far as to remove someone's body, to not get caught, you don't leave their clothing. That's just very unusual behavior. So when Larry confesses to this murder. He will the, first time he confesses to it, he will talk about how and why he did it. [00:38:36] He will say, well, you know, in a fit of rage, he kills her. What we know about Larry is he seemed to have had a problem with girls. No. Right. , no way. And this comes from me talking to a lot of people who knew Larry. And, , just knew a lot about Larry growing up [00:39:00] with Larry and his twin. [00:39:01] His twin always got the girl. But Larry never could get the girl. He was always socially awkward, and it just seemed like he always had a problem. With getting girls or talking to girls. , and the way that Larry has communicated with people, both in talking to them and letters or phone calls that Larry has shared with people that I've spoken to, Larry has shared that during these encounters with people, because some of these he has confessed to, and this one specifically he has confessed to for Tricia. [00:39:46] For Tricia, he says that when he goes to kill someone, he doesn't mean to, what happens is he approaches them because he thinks they're attractive and he [00:40:00] likes them. But then when they deny him or show disinterest in him, then he basically flips out and. Has to kill them. So that's what then happens is that he freaks out and then kills them. [00:40:17] And what we know is that from what he says is after he killed her, he then regretted doing what he did. So what he did was nice and neatly folded all of her clothes and left them there by where he, where all this happened. And , that's why all of her clothing was there. [00:40:40] Men, this is why women get so defensive when you hit on them in public because literally all it takes is a simple, even a polite, no thank you. And someone might flip, switch and try to kill you right now. I do want to mention one thing. That we can go into a [00:41:00] little bit more detail, when we record our bonus episode. [00:41:04] I recently recorded an interview with someone who has a lot of correspondence with Larry and has had a lot of correspondence with Larry and when he has had those correspondence with Larry, Larry has shared that in some of his murders, Larry was not alone. And the caveat to that is if there is proof, because if Larry is this serial killer that a lot of people say he is, Larry very well could be lying about that, right? [00:41:40] So, you know, why would he be telling the truth? Because in my mind, Larry is lying about something because he has confessed, he has recanted and now he has also said that other people have been involved, [00:42:00] and I know who the other people he is saying was involved. I will not say who those people are because thank, there's not evidence to that. [00:42:09] But for example, for Tricia's case, when they bring dogs out to sniff her clothing, to see if they could get a trace of where the scent may lead them after they get her sent those dogs take the scent around the field in this zigzag pattern. So like from the scent, they're zigzagging around that field. [00:42:38] And it was very odd and it didn't make sense. However, without prompting Larry, he makes sense of it. He says, that's because I wasn't alone. He says What happened was there was someone else there. She started running away and we were [00:43:00] chasing her. And so what was happening is, what he says is she starts running. [00:43:08] You have two people who are chasing her. So she's zigzagging to get away as one would, if you have two people chasing, that's a natural prey instinct too. That's how animals get away from predators in the wild, right? And so at one point in time, they're able to catch up to her and that's where the scent would stop. [00:43:27] So that would make sense of the scent at least. . The first scenario of Larry being there with his van, getting her at the street wouldn't make sense of the zigzag pattern. , he would have to then take her clothing and do a zigzag in the field with her clothing or something. [00:43:52] , it would be very bizarre, very odd behavior. And he doesn't admit to doing that, and he doesn't prompt [00:44:00] doing that. It would just be very, very weird to be out in a field doing it. It'd be noticeable. I mean, someone sure you would, right? Um, there's what's going on out here it would be very risky to be out there doing it. [00:44:13] So I think that, that's an very important piece to it to keep in mind that there is at least this one example of something that does back up one. One aspect of a possibility of maybe what Larry says in this instance could be true. But then again, the Marion police detectives who worked on that case to this day still do not believe that Larry was involved. [00:44:44] And Larry has still not been convicted of that murder, okay? For her case. They have a different suspect in mind who has never been charged for it or who has never been convicted of it. , so it's really up in the air on [00:45:00] what you could prove and who you can prove it against. [00:45:02] But what Larry says here is a very interesting thing that I think we should consider. So all in all, Larry Hall has confessed to between 15 and 39 victims of the bodies recovered from those believed to be his victims. Those people were all pretty young females, some as young as 10, and they were strangled and sexually mutilated. [00:45:32] It's believed that his final killing took place in early October of 1994, just three weeks before he was brought in by please for questioning. So before I finish and let Josh do his story, I always take over these podcasts. Josh, I know I'm almost at an hour. I'll mention a couple things about Blackbird. [00:45:53] One is that there's a story. Most of the story in Blackbird is about Jimmy [00:46:00] Keen's. He's in prison. The FBI asked Jimmy Keen to be undercover and to try to get a confession or locations of bodies from Larry Hall. So it's a very interesting scenario that plays out. The hour here that I've talked about, Larry, is still brushing the surface. [00:46:22] Like this series that I've been working on is gonna be a very in depth, , story on Larry and it will present the case on is Larry a serial killer or is he a poor guy who is innocent and imprison and just taking the blame because serial confessor, right. So it's just a very interesting scenario here. [00:46:49] I wanna watch that show. Yeah. One thing that I'll mention. Before I let you start is that, in the series, [00:47:00] his twin brother makes an appearance and his twin brother's name is Gary. Gary, he doesn't make an appearance in person. They portray him, but Gary talks about Larry and they show a story of one time Larry and Gary are at a reenactment. [00:47:21] And, Gary shares with the detectives that he realized that Larry has a problem with women and he had witnessed Larry, severely sexually assaulting a woman who was denying. . And in that moment, Gary had shared, again, this was Gary in the series, had shared with those detectives that he thought that his brother was a predator at that moment. [00:47:59] And so in the [00:48:00] series that's when, his twin brother was like, oh no, something bad is here. I think he's capable of doing this. Yeah. And so in the series, that's when, his brother turned on him. And in real life, his twin brother, you know, wasn't, yeah. Yeah. That's Jesus. [00:48:21] There we go. Jesus. Amen. Oh, well, good gravy. Well, I'm glad you didn't mention, any of the other possible people that could have helped Tim's name, because I don't want to be hunted down while I'm going to the Walmart . Right. Well, my story is not anything like that. , but, , is it about Care Bears? Yeah. [00:48:43] Oh yeah. Have you ever been told that you look familiar or that you might even have an identical twins somewhere out there? Well, we all have, others out there who resemble us to some degree. I mean, there's only, so much genetic diversity to go around in the.[00:49:00] [00:49:01] but the chances of someone looking exactly like someone else and all features is about one in 1 trillion, which there aren't even a trillion people on the planet. Identical twins excluded me, myself, I've been told, that I look like people multiple times. One time at a gas station, a lady came in and she looked at me and got her stuff got in line behind me and I'd never seen her before, so I didn't think anything of it. [00:49:29] And she just gives me a, oh, so you're just gonna ignore me and didn't think she was talking to me. I finally, after a few seconds, like, beg your pardon. And then she realized I wasn't her friend, but I looked so much like him and even she said, my voice sounded like his, that she thought I was her friend. [00:49:48] Just straight up ignoring her at the gas station. Never laid eyes on her before. People think that I look a lot like Brad Pitt. I see it. Yeah, I see around the eyes a little. [00:50:00] Yeah, the body, the body , the body, the hair everywhere. , I mean, there are people I would love to look like, but those cards weren't in my order, [00:50:09] it really humbles you too. When someone says that you look like someone else, because you walk around thinking, oh, here I am a unique person. And then come to find out there's dozens of other people that look like you, and that's where I get on my mystery for today. Doppel. Gangers sometimes described as a spiritual opposite or negative of that human counterpart. [00:50:34] They are usually invisible to the one they portray, and if you ever happen to see your doppelganger, it is a sign of death or illness. Doppelganger is a German term for double goer and has a history that reaches us far back as humans have been around from all over the world and in every civilization there are tales of these spiritual doubles. [00:50:59] Hey, [00:51:00] say German one more time. I think you said Gebel German . I have a little bit of a lisp, so sometimes my words don't come out and all of them center around the idea that these doppel gangers are always a bad omen. The best way to tell if something is a doppel Ganger is that they cast no shadows. [00:51:21] In Greek mythology, we have the tale of narcissist who falls in love with his own reflection, which is a tale I'm particularly fond of. I've never been one to pass up looking in a shiny surface. Even people from the Orne Islands in Scotland feared small fairy like creatures called TROs. And according to legend, TROs would give birth to children who were apt to be sickly Pregnant. [00:51:48] Women were carefully guarded against the TROs who would often steal healthy human babies and replace them with their own children, often known as Changelings. I've [00:52:00] heard that term before, but never trs, and the changelings would transform into exact replicas of the stolen children and bring misery to the families that raised them. [00:52:13] Also, according to legend, the abducted human children were usually given to the devil or used to strengthen fairy. The return of the original child may be affected by making the change, lean, laughed, or by torturing it. , it is the latter belief which was responsible for numerous cases of child abuse. [00:52:36] As you can imagine, I probably would've tried to make it laugh, but I guess most people are like, let's just torture the little sucker, right? Even many Native American creation myths likewise provide for the role of dualistic twins. Hopi legend refers to the twins who are called the child of the sun and the child of the water. [00:52:59] There's also [00:53:00] the two wolves saying that goes something like, there are two wolves inside of us. They're always fighting. One is darkness and despair. The other is light. And hope the one that you feed is the one that wins. I'd take it a bit further saying I feed both of them because they're all part of one pack. [00:53:19] I'm real big on learning about your shadow self. Even in Christian beliefs, there is a Christ and his opposite, the anti-Christ who is said to appear and bring with him the apocalypse. In my own spiritual practices, I believe in a shadow self and light self. By learning from both, because they're all part of one, we can find a better balance of our true selves. [00:53:44] I used to thank Shadow Josh with something to suppress, but in my journey of enlightenment, I've learned that it is often my protector. Whenever my light side can't handle a situation, my shadow self is there to protect [00:54:00] me and give me my sassy strength. The term hold. My earrings came to mind when I was researching that. [00:54:08] While many today still believe in the existence of a double self, some scientists believe the phenomenon occurs based on injuries or stimulation to certain parts of the brain. Others believe it is a result of a vision or replicated, , individual from another dimension, which is my belief, the existence of infinite realities all simultaneously existing at the same time. [00:54:34] Have you ever experienced deja vu? Well, that could be a sign that you and one of your altars are doing the exact same thing at the same time, and it's also a sign that you are on the correct path. There are several famous stories of Doppel gangers and you actually just visited one of their boyhood homes. [00:54:55] Abraham Lincoln, as we learned in my psychic story, did believe [00:55:00] in the existence of the paranormal. , and he was said to have seen his doppelganger several times, but when he was first elected as president, he had a vision while looking in a mirror in 1860, stating that the second reflection looked paler and weaker as it stared back at him. [00:55:20] His wife, Mary Todd Lincoln, predicted that it meant he would survive his first term, but not his second if he was reelected. And as we all know, that was the case, right? At least in this universe, whether or not it was indeed a doppelganger vision or just fate. I'll leave that up to you guys. And all that leads me to our tale of one of the most recorded cases of a doppelganger that we know of. [00:55:50] I bring forth for your consideration of the Midnight Society, the story of Emily Saja. I was a little nineties Nickelodeon [00:56:00] reference. Now most of us have experienced getting a fresh start. There is nothing quite as freeing as moving to a new place, starting a new job, and getting the opportunity to reinvent ourselves. [00:56:13] For Emily Saje trying to run away from the ghosts of her past, they would sooner or later always find a way to creep back up again. Within just 16 years, she would change jobs more than 19 times, all due to a doppelganger who was just freaking everybody out around her. She began her teaching career at the age of 16 and was quickly known as being more than capable at her job. [00:56:45] She was well liked among the staff, parents and children, and she just genuinely seemed to have a real passion for education. The problem was completely unknown to her. Everyone around [00:57:00] her was seen a doppelganger almost daily while she was teaching. Usually within weeks of starting at a new school, reports would come in from students of seeing two. [00:57:11] Miss Sas when one would ask where she was, two students would claim to have seen her at the same time, but at different locations. Of course, they were quickly dismissed by the teachers, and that is until they began to witness the double themselves. Once while riding on the chalkboard, there are claims that a second Miss Saja was standing right beside the first and mimicking everything that she was riding. [00:57:40] This is where the apparition appeared and the real Emily was said to become lethargic and pale. Each time it showed up. There were 13 students in that classroom and all of them told the same recount of the event. Now, the doppelganger did not only mimic Emily, [00:58:00] she would get up from a chair, and it has said that the double would usually remain seated or stand behind her as she ate, mimicking her actions, but without silverware or actual food. [00:58:14] One student even claimed to have fainted after seeing two Ms massages in a mirror while they were helping her tie up the back of her dress. There was one teacher there helping her. She looked in the mirror and bam, there's two of them, one looking more sickly, and the shock of it just caused her to black out. [00:58:34] I mean, same. , I feel like I would either pass out or come around swinging like, I don't know you . That's my purse. Even when Emily was bedridden with an illness, a student claimed to have seen the doppelganger walking around the room while the real Miss Saja laid asleep on the bed. Eventually, 42 students and staff [00:59:00] members would see both of them in separate rooms of the school. [00:59:04] The real Emily was out in the garden picking flowers while her assistant helped the ladies during an embroidery lesson. Suddenly everyone saw the double in the classroom with them seated in a chair. They quickly looked out the window and saw the real Emily still outside, but looking more worn out than she had previous. [00:59:27] Two of the students finally worked up the nerve to approach the double, and they claim that upon touching her that she had a light fabric like feel, and one of the girls even walked through the legs of the apparition before it quickly disappeared. Everyone in the room claimed that the figure was so realistic that they first just believed that Emily had just walked back into the room while they were busy embroidering, and no one noticed as she sat down. [00:59:57] But again, each time the double would [01:00:00] appear, Emily became drained and almost lifeless, but as soon as it disappeared, she would go back to being completely normal. That was really her only indicator that it was even happening because again, she never once saw her doppel gang. [01:00:16] eventually though, and that's why she had to go to so many different schools to teach. Her students would just stop coming to class and she'd have to move far away to a different town where no one had heard of the rumors of her doppelganger. She always received great references though because her work ethic was amazing, but it wouldn't take long until the doppelganger began appearing again. [01:00:45] Emily was eventually unable to find work at any school and moved in with her sister to help tutor her children, but even her own niece and nephew claimed to have started to see two Aunt Emily's [01:01:00] still. When asked about it, Emily would say she had no control over the appearances and that she felt helpless. [01:01:08] It was literally ruining her life. So was Emily Saje just a victim of a repeated prank by students at all 19 of the schools she taught at? Was she a gifted astro projector who was so skilled that she could do it even unbeknownst to her? Could it be a second her in a mirrored alternate dimension? Was Emily truly visited by the foreboding doppelganger to, for tell of a grim fate? [01:01:43] Or was the whole thing just a story from a book called Footfalls on the Boundary of Another World written by Robert Dale Owen in 1860 when the story first came to light? Whatever your theory is, [01:02:00] if you ever come across a replica of yourself. Maybe take a few precautions and look both ways before you cross your next street. [01:02:11] Better safe than, sorry. That's a very interesting story. I've been excited to share it with you. I've had my notes on it, written for a few weeks now, and, , when you were like, told me you were gonna see Abraham Lincoln, I was like, oh, I wanna tell him. Like, look in the mirror while you're there, if there is one. [01:02:30] Yeah. So those things. I was at, Lincoln's boyhood home in southern Indiana, over last week. And you've covered Abraham Lincoln on several different, or have researched him on several different things and I'm like, man, I had no idea. He had such ties to so many things. Mm-hmm. , even when I was reading this, I came across a story of, His funeral, like he had a 1700 mile long funeral procession. [01:02:56] Mm-hmm. and only, I believe one photo was allowed to be [01:03:00] taken. Right. They had one photographer take a photo of him, and that photo is creepy as I'll get out. But I was intrigued by this story because part of my, education and my own spiritual practices has really been working on shadow self and light self. [01:03:17] And, you know, coming to terms with both of them, my shadow self is not that bad. It's just a little sassy. I'm not saying if you're having serial killer thoughts, take your meds, seek professional help or whatever you have to do, , don't succumb to the dark parts of it. Sometimes we need help, but I just found it interesting and Emily's story first came up in that book that I mentioned, but there are so many stories of her that it's hard to tell if this man, you know, came up with it or if it's a story that he knew of and just included it in his book. [01:03:56] I will say that there are no birth records of [01:04:00] Emily Saja, but there is records of another woman born around the same time. She would've been with a similar last name. It was just spelled a little bit differently, but I can believe, someone wanting to move past this narrative of, oh, I have an evil twin ghost creature and changing her name even so I can fully believe that it's true. [01:04:26] But I wanted to mention the book as well cuz it's really up in the air, right. And what year did you say that was? 1860 is when his book came out and it was called, , footfalls from Another World. And I almost went to the used bookstore here in town to see if he had it. Cuz the library didn't. [01:04:48] Yeah. Well you might be in luck cuz the bookstore here in town is a huge bookstore. I wanted to go, but I was like, if I go there, I'm gonna spend a small fortune. Cuz I, I love old books and just exploring [01:05:00] bookstores. Well, you know, it's the largest bookstore in Indiana. [01:05:03] Are you serious? Yeah. Wow. I did not know that. Yeah, it's huge. You should seriously go into it. The aisles are so thin and , the books are so piled up so high though. It kind and creeps me out. a little claustrophobia. Like, because it's in an old building. [01:05:19] It's pretty cool just to be in there. But there's so many books. In fact, they have so many books that they take up the building next door too. , you can't go in there, but they've outdone themselves, so they have so many that they have tens of thousands of books. [01:05:34] Wow. Filling up the old building that's next door as well. Ugh. I'll have to go in there now. I had no idea it was the oldest. That's crazy. Yeah. Well, they, it's not the oldest. It just has the most Yeah, yeah. Small towns. Who would've thk it? Yeah. , it doesn't look it when you're staring at it from outside, but when you go in, it's deep. [01:05:53] But it also goes into the buildings next. And they're stacked literally from the floor to the [01:06:00] ceiling. I bet he has it. I also didn't do it cuz I was like, if he has it, it's such an old book. And I, I knew he had such a large amount of books in there. I was like, it's probably like an original first edition. [01:06:11] And I'm not about to spend a small fortune on a book . Well, to be honest with you, no one's probably looking for it. . Yeah, that's true. I will give you five whole dollars for that right here today. . Right. Yeah. I've gotten lucky with finding books in there before. You might get lucky, you might be in there for a few days. [01:06:28] Yeah. trying to find it. But I've gotten lucky with finding some pretty cool, history and crime books in there before. They have a really good selection. Is that where, , your wife, I don't wanna say her name, but, , I know she has like a small collection of really old books. Oh, we've gotten some in there. [01:06:45] Okay. Yeah, we've gotten some old books in there. . Yeah. Just something about an old book. Uh uh, the Smell of Paper. Yeah. One of those books is, from the 18 hundreds and , it's a book this man wrote, and it's [01:07:00] about his journey, going through sobriety from alcohol. It's very fascinating to read. [01:07:06] It's in horrible shape, but it's just very fascinating to read from that time period Hmm. Of what his life was like, and going through being an alcoholic and trying to give it up and, , see that's something experiencing that, you don't hear about, like when you said that, it never occurred to me that people, before the 19 hundreds would even consider giving up alcoholism. [01:07:31] Mm-hmm. , you know, you just always hear, oh, and they died of consumption. Right. That's, Hmm. Yeah. . Yep. It's a very interesting book. And we just happened to come across it. And the funny thing is,, the title and the cover on it it's a plain cover, but there's nothing about the book that would make you have any idea of what it's about. [01:07:51] So it's not until you start reading it that you realize this man wrote it and it's just probably a single copy . Oh. It's just like [01:08:00] one version that he just wrote himself. His own personal from his typewriter. Yeah. Yeah. Small world. Yep. We just found it in an old bookstore. Well, now do you understand my, the Shining Twins gift I sent you from Yes, I do a Dopel Kickers [01:08:16] I do. Yeah. I've been, as soon as I learned that Abraham Lincoln saw won multiple times, I was like, oh, I want to tell Shane, but I have to wait until we record . . Yeah. That's funny. All right, well I guess that's the end of it. Oh, why don't you pick a review to read? Oh yeah, I picked one last time. [01:08:33] Let's see. And while he's searching for one, if you would be so kind to leave us review, if you enjoy listening, you can do so by simply leaving a review on iTunes or Apple Podcasts. Or if you are listening on Spotify, you can leave a review or a rating there, or wherever you listen to podcasts, there's probably a way that you can rate or review.[01:09:00] [01:09:00] , it really helps us out because when people go to see if they want to listen, they go to look to see how people who are listening rate or review, and they'll see what you're saying. So if you put down that you enjoy listening, they're gonna take that seriously. Or if people are putting that, Hey, these two guys are idiots and , they don't know what they're doing, you shouldn't listen. [01:09:20] They're not gonna be listening . So we really appreciate that you guys take the time to do this. Yes, thank you. And I, just pulled up the first one that I always saved them cuz it's, I've included them in my, morning routine. Like just, it's nice to read positive things from strangers about the work that we do. [01:09:38] Yeah. And this one says, I really like these brothers. The first episode I heard was about the Appalachian mystery. She said she is a Kentucky girl and she has relatives from the Appalachian Mountains in eastern Kentucky. And she's definitely heard her fair share of creepy tales. These guys are very entertaining and she can't wait [01:10:00] for more episodes. [01:10:01] Thank you my dear. , I don't have your name saved. . Well, good. If you, would be so kind to leave us review. You might actually hear us read your review out loud here. Well, Josh, let's go ahead and start the bonus episode. All righty. All right, well, we'll see you there. If you're gonna listen, join us on Patreon and you can hear all about it. [01:10:24] or on Apple Podcasts? Apple Podcast Premium Premium. Right. Alright, let's go ahead and get started. Alrighty. [01:10:30] [01:11:00]